P: The subtlety of it is that the mind has to ask fundamental questions, but never
ask how.
K: Absolutely. I see very clearly; I perceive. Perception is light. I want to carry it
over as memory, as thought, and apply it to daily living. Therefore I introduce
duality, conflict, contradiction. So I say: How am I to go beyond that?
Perception is light to this mind. It is not concerned with perception any more
because if it is concerned, it becomes memory. Can the mind, seeing something
very clearly, end that perception? Then the very first step is the last step here.
The mind is fresh to look.
Do troubles end for such a mind? It does not ask this question. See what takes
place. When I ask the question: Will this end all trouble? I am already thinking of
the future and, therefore, am caught in time.
But I am not concerned. I perceive. It is over. Therefore, the mind is never
caught in time. Because I have taken the first step, I have also taken the last step,
each time.
So we see that all processes, all systems must totally be denied because they
perpetuate time; through time you hope to arrive at the timeless.
P: I see that the instruments you use are seeing and listening. These are sensory
movements. It is through sensory movements that conditioning also comes into
being. What is it that makes one movement totally dissolve conditioning and
another strengthen it?
K: How do I listen to that question? First of all, I do not know; I am going to
learn. If I learn in order to acquire knowledge, from which I am going to act, that
action becomes mechanical. But when I learn without accumulating, which
means perceiving, listening without acquiring, the mind is always empty.
Then what is the question? Can the mind which is empty ever be conditioned?
And why does it get conditioned? Can the mind which is really listening ever be
conditioned? It is always learning; it is always in movement—not a movement
from something towards something. A movement cannot have a beginning and
an ending. It is something which is alive, never conditioned. A mind that
acquires knowledge to function is conditioned by its own knowledge.
P: Is it the same instrument which is operating in both?
K: I do not know. I really do not know. The mind which is crowded with
knowledge sees according to that knowledge, according to that conditioning.
P: Sir, seeing is like switching on a light; it has no conditioning in itself.
K: The mind is full of images, words, symbols, through which it thinks, it sees.
P: Does it see?