movement towards or away from something, why should the mind have any
pattern? The seeing is the see-er—in that there is no duality. But those who make
that statement into an axiom do not experience it and, therefore, it remains a
theory.
P: The sūtras say that there are many types of liberation: Liberation by birth—
some men are born that way and that is the highest form of liberation; then
liberation by drugs, which is part of witchcraft; then liberation through āsanas
and through breath control; then liberation by understanding. I have always felt
that you have never been able to explain to us how liberation happened to you.
Was your mind like ours and it underwent a mutation subsequently? If so, there
is a possibility of seeing for oneself and transforming the self. But even that is
not relevant. I see that another’s seeing cannot help me to see; what I see is my
own. One has to leave it there. One cannot probe further.
K: As you said, liberation is divided between those born liberated and those
liberated through drugs, through yoga, through breath control and understanding.
These are just explanations of a very simple fact.
P: Your mind is not like ours; that is a simple fact.
K: There are all these categories: drugs, āsanas, and the enormous effort
involved in understanding—but I do not think it works that way at all.
P: I am not concerned with what the books say. I am very concerned when my
mind chatters. In the moment of perceiving, I see that a certain withering away
has taken place in me. But I am not free of the desire to end this chattering.
K: Do you really want to end it?
P: Yes.
K: Why does it not end? You see, it is very interesting: there is no ending to
chattering.
P: That is what my mind refuses to see—that there is no action to end it.
K: Why? Do you want to go into it?
P: Yes.
K: First, why do you object if your mind chatters? If you want to end chattering,
then the problem starts. Duality is the desire to end ‘what is’. Why do you object
to it? There is noise—the passing bus, the crow cawing. Let chattering go on. I
am not going to resist it. I am not going to be interested in it. It is there. It means
nothing.