36 newyork| november25–december8, 2019
tough to see somebody that has the gravi-
tas of Obama, then at the moment they’re
speaking out, it’s about some kids on Twit-
ter and cancel culture. That’s a little hard
to take. Young people have no power.
Obama can’t be canceled, not by them, but
the people that are actively at this very
moment trying to cancel him, the person
who designed his entire presidency
around the cancel culture of the Obama
administration itself—
By that you mean negating the legacy,
negating the gains, negating the policy?
Totally. Trump has been really open
about this. His entire identity is a negative
identity. He defines himself by his ability to
take apart the legacy of Barack Obama. It’s
just not clear to me what the advantage is
in Obama deploying his power in that way.
I don’t know who it helps.
It’s understandable to me thata presi-
dent would consider it politicallyexpedi-
ent to avoid talking about racism in any
kind of profound, challenging way.
But more than that, the way he addressed
people without power. There’s probably a
strong political argument for not saying
white supremacy is at the core of America.
Listen, you’re a president of theUnited
States. I get it. I’m not saying youhave to
talk like me, but I just think the harshness
in the way he talks about people who lack
power. I think as a whole, our obsession
with young people and what’s happening
on college campuses is deeply unhealthy. It
bespeaks people who don’t remember
being young themselves. So maybehe’s just
a part of that, but when the damage is done
by Trump and they ask, “What wasthe first
black president talking about?,”and the
answeris somekidsoncollegecampusesor
somepeopleonTwitter,well,I just don’t
likehowthat sounds.
There are nowthreeblackcandidates^13
runningfortheDemocraticnomination,
noneofwhomseemtobecatchingonwith
votersinanymeaningfulway.Whatdo
youthinka blackcandidatehastodoto
getelectedpost-Obama?
Firstofall,youcan’t bethefirstagain.
Sothesheeramountofenergythat was
generatedat that particularmomentin
time—followinga presidentwhohadjust
basically run the country into the gutter,
you get this black dude who’s able to very
specifically become the embodiment of
certain things about the black imagina-
tion or the black political imagination—
you’re just not going to do that again. So
that’s the first thing.
The second thing is that Barack Obama
was not the first black dude to run.^14
There’s this sort of notion that, oh, Barack
Obama shows up and then black people
just sort of fall over themselves to vote for
him. Black people are actually very savvy
and very canny. I don’t support Joe Biden
for president, but I totally understand why
most black people do. I totally understand
why the person that’s running second to
him in a lot of places is Bernie Sanders. It’s
not a mistake. The other thing too is people
forget that Obama was just a damn good
politician. No disrespect, but whatwe got?
Three candidates? Do any of them have the
oratorical skills that Barack had?
Absolutely not.
If he was white, he would have been a
remarkable figure as a politician. The
notion that you’re just going to show up
and be black and we’re going to follow—it
just don’t work like that. The larger popu-
lace is sort of amazed that Kamala Harris
or Cory Booker hasn’t captured more of
the black imagination, but it’s not that
amazing. Barack Obama is just a unique
dude, man.
It does seem like the calculus post-
Obama among black voters is who we
think can win, and part of that calculus is
white folks are racist. What needs have to
be fulfilled by a black candidate to win?
I’m not sure. Perhaps what would help is
tounderstandwhoit couldnotbe.No black
personcouldbewhoPeteButtigiegis.
You’renotgoingtobemayororwhatever.
Youcan’t bea blackpersonwho’s onlybeen
inthereandthensay, “Hey,I’mgoingtorun
theentirecountry.” Thatjust don’t fly,you
know?Soit’ s probablygoingtobesome-
bodyoutoftheSenateorthegovernorship
somewhere.Andyoucan’t evenbeJoe
Biden,bytheway. I don’t evenwanttopick
onPeteButtigieg.If JoeBidenwasblack,
evenblackpeoplewouldbelike, “Oh,abso-
lutelynot.”He’sgoingtoget killedoutthere.Bumbling his way through shit. You’re like
no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. But I think a
lot of black folks are banking on the white
candidate, which may not be wrong.
Trump did this big event in Atlanta
recently where he’s promising to fight for
every black vote, which was ridiculed. At
the same time, he did better with black
voters than Mitt Romney or John McCain.
That’s a bad comparison, though. I mean,
come on.
It’s not crazy to think that Trump at
least trying could move the needle a point
or two.
I think black support for Trumpis vastly
overstated.^15 I guess I kind of resent the
basis on which the question is asked.
Trump gets—how many more did he get
than Romney and McCain?
It was a couple of points.
Meanwhile, white people are voting for
a dude who bragged openly about sexual
assaults. Why are we not afforded a couple
points? Why can’t a couple n-----s be crazy?
Excuse my language. There are much more
significant factors than those twoor three
points in why Trump is in office. Why does
he have power in the first place? Those two
or three points are nowhere near as impor-
tant as the fact that Trump basically got a
majority of every single white demographic
you could think of. Majority of every eco-
nomic cross-section of white people. We’re
having this debate about two or three
points among black people. Nobody goes to
white people and says, “What in the hell is
wrong with y’all?”
I think there has been a thorough cri-
tique of the white vote for Trump. Maybe
especially in the circles that we are—
Probablyso.In ourcircles,yes.I would
agree.
You’vewithdrawnfrombothsocial
mediaandnonfictionwritinggenerally.
Isthereanythingyou’veseenhappen
andbeenlike,Ohman,thatwouldbe
somethingI wouldreallyloveto tacklein
a bigway?
Allthetime.I wishI waswritingabout
Kaepernickrightnow.Oneofthedeci-
sionsI hadtomake,though,wasamI at
mystrongestcommentingontheday-to-
day,oramI at my strongestwhenI wait,8 TheWarmthof Other
Suns:TheEpicStoryof
America’sGreat
Migrationis Isabel
Wilkerson’s National
BookCriticsCircle
Award–winningepic
heAmericansfromthe
Southto theNortheast,
Midwest,andWest.9 TheformerNFL
quarterbackhas
beensidelinedfor
threeyearsbythe
leagueoverhis
decisionto kneel
duringthenational
a ro
o ole10 In mid-November,
theNFLscheduled
a workoutfor
Kaepernickin front
of scouts.Because
of therestrictive,
rable
stancesof
r, hechose
to holdhisown
workout.11 In 2013,Incognito
wassuspendedfrom
theMiamiDolphinsfor
harassingteammate
JonathanMartin.
Martinwas“subjected
to homophobicname-
callingandimproper
physicaltouching”by
Incognitoandtwoother
teammates.(^12) “I dogeta sense
sometimesnowamong
certainyoungpeople...
thatthewayof memaking
changeis to beas
judgmentalaspossible
aboutotherpeopleand
that’senough,”theformer
presidentsaidin October,
criticizingsocialmedia’s
calloutculture. PHOTOGRAPH: AL DIAZ/MIAMI HERALD/TRIBUNE NEWS SERVICE VIA GETTY IMAGES (KAEPERNICK)