Rolling Stone - USA (2020-02)

February 2020 | Rolling Stone | 43

out there and work to build this

campaign, and it’s individuals, not

corporate PACs. It’s everything

from people chipping in a few

bucks online to house parties and

events that are also an important

part of the strategy.

So I wish we were in a differ-

ent system, and I’ll work to bring

about that system. We need to

make sure we’re strategic before

we issue these purity tests, first

of all building the organization

that’s going to beat Trump, and

also being sure that we’re clear on

why we’re doing this.

Do you see the differentiation

between you and other candi-

dates on health care and college

as a difference between what is

possible and what’s utopia?

I also think it’s a better policy.

What I think makes our health

care approach better is that it

cooks in some humility to the pol-

icy because, basically, if you’re

saying that we’re going to throw a

switch and put everybody on the

public plan, or even if you’re say-

ing that we’re going to wait, but

on a certain date, we’re going to

throw everybody on that plan,

you’re assuming a lot about your

ability to decide what’s going to

work for people. It’s precisely be-

cause I believe that a public plan

can probably be the right answer

for everybody that I’m willing to

put it out there and let folks de-

cide for themselves. On college,

I think my view is more progres-

sive. It’s more progressive to offer

the dollars where they’d make the

biggest difference.

What was your primary rea-

son for working at McKinsey?

First of all, I’m not out to trick

anybody. It paid well. That was

helpful. To this day, I don’t think

I’ve ever made that much money.

But the main thing was I felt like

there were areas of my education

and understanding of the world

that were missing. I understood

politics, a little, from working on

campaigns. I understood, as much

as you could familiarize yourself

with academically about history,

literature, philosophy, and eco-

nomics. But having any profes-

sional responsibilities related to

understanding a balance sheet

or how money and goods move

around the world — I didn’t have

that. That felt like a gap.

You’ve talked about Mc Kinsey

recommending job cuts at Blue

Cross Blue Shield two years

after you left. You’ve also said

as mayor you could only do so

much with the police.

I try to be very clear about what

I was responsible for. Look, at

the end of the day, when you’re

the mayor, you’re responsible for

the city. I held myself responsible

even for trying to at least be help-

ful in areas where I had no formal

control, like the schools. With

McKinsey, the idea that I took

down Blue Cross Blue Shield in my

first few weeks? Right. I thought it

was meaningful that I worked at

a firm responsible for providing

good analysis. But it’s been a lit-

tle fanciful to see what people are

extrapolating from that.

How do you respond to crit-

icism that anything you did in

your career was with this idea

that 10 years from now, whether

it’s for president or senator, “I’m

building toward something.”

Like anybody else, I think about

the future. But if you’re plotting

every move perfectly in order to

go on to become president and

you’re a Democrat, you don’t

move home to Indiana. I’m op-

timistic, but not delusional. Not

that it hadn’t crossed my mind

that I’d run for office, but I wound

up running for office on an ex-

tremely uphill path, because I

cared about the issues at stake in

state treasuries. After getting clob-

bered in that race [for state trea-

surer], I ran for office in South

Bend because I saw that I could

make myself useful. So this idea, if

you’re plotting your every move, I

probably would’ve plotted myself

into a different state.

The polling on this is not pre-

cise, but there’s at least the

idea that you are doing quite

well with older Democratic

primary voters, yet struggling

with roughly the people of your

generation or slightly younger.

Is that a challenge?

We’ve always found that older vot-

ers are more likely to respond to

me as a younger candidate. Even

in South Bend we found that, and

I don’t know all the reasons for it.

One of them, I think, is that age

and experience may be a little

demystified when you’re older.

There may be more impatience

with one generation holding an

office for a long period of time.

That impatience is greatest, actu-

ally, among those who were from

that generation, and they’re ready

to watch their kids and grandkids

pick up the ball and run with it.

Part of it may be ideology, al-

though I want to make sure that

young progressives or any pro-

gressives hear the message that

I would be the most progressive

president in their lifetimes.

What is the most important

issue facing the country?

The big picture that I’m con-

cerned with is belonging. It’s

unity, and when I say unity, I

don’t mean everybody agree-

ing on policy. I mean transcend-

ing every political disagreement.

I don’t necessarily mean shoot-

ing the middle ideologically, ei-

ther. What I’m talking about is

just a sense that, even when you

don’t agree with a president, you

still view that president as belong-

ing to the same country. There is

a way to have the courage of our

convictions and also try to under-

stand people who view the world

differently. So are there issues that

I think are central? Of course. Ob-

viously climate, racial, and eco-

nomic inequality, perhaps behind

it all, democracy.

That’s why I’m further forward

than a lot of my competitors on

Democratic reform issues because

it’s the issue of how we deal with

every other issue. But part of why

we’re getting the resonance that

we are is this search for belonging

that’s on people’s minds.

The first time we talked was

this spring, after people started

pointing out your lack of sup-

port among African Americans.

Do you see progress?

Yeah, of course. We’ve succeed-

ed to some extent in demonstrat-

ing that “working class” should

not be a code for “white working

class.” When people hear rural,

they often think white. One of the

things you see in the South is that

the rural South, the problems of

rural economic development, for

example, in the South are often

problems mainly impacting black

folks. In order to have conversa-

tions with more diverse voters,

we needed to create smaller con-

versations that were more two-

way, and we did. They went very

well. But we had to do that. So

especially in the past couple of

months, with the Southern swing

and other things we’ve done, it’s

focused on that.

Are you seeing results?

Yeah, for sure. But you can also

feel that we’ve got a lot of work

to do. The good news is, if you

look at the numbers that are out

there, there’s no higher level of

unfavorable views on me among

voters of color. There are just way

fewer folks saying they’ve got a

strong opinion, period. So I rec-

ognized that responsibility to

get to know people that some of

my competitors have had a few

decades to do.

You talk about saying to soon-

to-be former Republican voters

“We need as many hands as

we can get.” Is there any worry

that this is going to piss off the

Sanders and Warren voters?

Look, the point for me is that we

don’t define this campaign based

on who we reject. I’ll go toe-to-toe

with anybody on how progressive

my plans are. Sure, some folks

want to take it to extremes, but I

don’t think it makes sense. This is

plenty progressive. The whole

point is that I can be clear about

my values and bold in my policies

and still connect with people from

across the aisle.

YOUTH VOTE

“I want to make

sure that young

progressives,

or any

progressives,

hear the

message that

I would be

the most

progressive

president in

their lifetimes.”

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