he do,howmuchcouldhe imple-
mentgiventhefearof capitalflight
whilethe economyis linkedto global
finance? Giventhelink,it would
havebeenirresponsibleto imple-
mentit sincecapitalflightwould
have,among otherthings,resulted in
massiveunemployment.
Andso, if thereis to be effective-
nessof resistance underglobalisa-
tion, there would have to be
movements waiting at whichever
placecapitalflies to. Whatsortof
international solidaritieswouldthat
require? Canwe evenimagine sucha
thing?[Michael]Hardtand[Anto-
nio]Negri talkof “multitude”as a
kind of “de-territorialised” resist-
ance.Havetheyor anyoneelseever
madeclearwhatthatis apartfroma
fantasy? EvenjustwithinEurope,
Podemos failed to come through
withanysupportof Greeceduringits
recent trials with the European
banking establishment.
So, difficult as it is, thereis only
realscope for resistance at thena-
tionallevel.In Leftcommentaryin
India on the large September 5
[2018]worker-peasant (including
agriculturallabourers) rally, it was
pointed outhowsignificantit was
thatsolidaritywasshown between
thesetwogroupsdespite distinctand
conflictinginterests(after all, peas-
antswanthigherpricesfor what they
produce, but thathurtsthe workerin
thecitywhopurchases,say,food-
grains).Thatis justthe kindof solid-
aritythatit is so hardto evenimagine
at a globallevel.Whatsortof similar
solidaritycould possiblybe envis-
agedbetweenpeasantsin India and
whoeverconsumesthe exportedbas-
matiin metropoles abroad?Or take
perhapsa morerealistic example.
These commentaries I men-
tionedexplainthe solidaritybetween
urbanlabourerandpeasant as fol-
lows.Lowprocurementpricesfor
foodgrains creates destitution
amongthe peasantryandforcestheir
migration to the cities, whichthen,in
turn, creates hardshipamong la-
bourers in the citydueto the “reserve
army”effectof thatmigration.So it is
notjustin theinterestsof thepeas-
antryto demandhigherpricesbut
thelabourerin thecityto support
this.Andthatwaspartlywhatwasso
encouragingabout thatrally.But
nowcanyouimagine anythinglike
this solidarity emerging in the
presentframeworks of politicalcul-
turebetween whiteworkersin the
citiesin theU.S.borderingMexico
andthepotentiallydisplaced mi-
grantfromMexicoto thesecities?
Trump’s entire support base has
emerged preciselybecauseof such
solidaritybeingoutof thequestion.So theonlyfeasible solidarities
amongdifferent sectorsof working
(andworkless) peopleare reallyon or
withinthe site of the nation.Youcan
haveflashevents likeSeattlea few
yearsagoanda few other thingslike
that;youcanhavetheWorld Eco-
nomicForum annual meetings,but
admirablethough thesethings cer-
tainlyare,theydo not constitutesus-
tainedmovementsof thesortthat
putsanyserious pressureon the light
patchwork form of international
governancethatglobalfinanceal-
lows.Realchangewillcomethrough
movementson nationalsites,and
parliamentary political parties in
specific nationswillhaveto be alert
to whatthese movementsarede-
manding andformulatetheirelect-
oralplatformsin accord withthe
interestsarticulatedin thesemove-
ments. This last point is whatSandersandCorbynunderstoodin
theirintra-party parliamentarycam-
paigns,andsuchsuccess as theyhave
hadin enliveningtheirrespective
moribund Clintonite and Blairite
partieshasbeendueto preciselythis
alertness on theirpart.Butin coun-
triesof the South, prettymuchall the
causesthatsurfacein thesemove-
ments(withveryfewexceptions)are
eventually pursuableonlywithinde-
linkedpoliticaleconomies. To pur-
sue them within a neoliberal
framework of globalisation makes
themhostageto theanxietiesabout
capitalflight. In Europetoo,as the
experience of Greece has shown,
thereis onlyheartacheandfrustra-
tionfor the Leftif it seeksto haveit
bothways.Wehaveexploreda lotof different
themesaroundpopulism,including
therealisticwaysto thinkabout
alternativesandsolutionsto
globalisation.Canyousay
somethingbywayof summary
aboutyourlineof thinkingand
argumentonthesubject.
My dialectichas been somethinglike
this.I started outby sayingthatthe
factthatthereare verydifferentand
evencontradictory contents to popu-
lismsshould notmake us regard
populism as a contentless phe-
nomenonandlookto trivial(con-
tentless)featuresof it thatarein
common(suchas thecharisma of
populistleaders),evenif therewere
such trivial features in common
(whichI doubtthereare;Corbynis
hardly charismatic). Rather, we
shouldlookfor somethingsubstan-
tialandnon-trivialthatis in com-
mon,andI proposedthatwe should
lookat thecommoncausalcondi-
tionsthatgiveriseto populismswith
different, evencontradictory,con-
tentsandshowwhytheydo. I then
focussedon theright-wing popu-
lismsin Britainandthe U.S.(speak-
ing occasionally as well to the
left-wingpopulismsin bothplacesof
CorbynandSanders). AndI triedto
diagnosethetwincausalconditions
thatpromptedthesepopulisms.In
doingso, I stressednotmerely glob-
alisation, whichis an obvious causal
condition,buttheroleof liberalismFRANCISFUKUYAMA,a2 003
picture.“...Fukuyama summarised
awholerange of Northernthinking
aboutthecurrentperiod’spolitical
economyasconstitutingthe‘endof
history’.”RAMESHSHARMA