30 LISTENER AUGUST 3 2019
At 13, you were imagining a life in farming. In
hindsight, could that have satisfied you?
My summers in Hawke’s Bay had a
huge influence in terms of develop-
ing a real love for the landscape and of
physical outdoor work. I used to spend
every summer employed on the farms
there. At that point, it was certainly the
lifestyle I aspired to, but where would the
farm have come from? My parents were
not rich enough to afford one.Connected to that, perhaps, you wrote
an article for the Listener in 1978 called “A
great place to bring up children”, in which
you argued that intellectual and cultural
stimulation were just as important for children
as those idyllic beach and rural holidays. What
provoked that?
When [Phillida and I] went to the US,
we had two kids under the age of four. I
had dreaded it, because we were leaving
a New Zealand summer and going to a
Boston winter, which turned out to be
the worst winter Boston had had in a
century. So, we made for the museums,
and I just couldn’t believe how the kids
responded to that, how quickly they
learnt. So I came back and wrote “A great
place to bring up children”. It was meant
to be provocative – people accused me of
being captured by American capitalism
and turning my back on a great New
Zealand tradition. [Former prime minister
Robert] Muldoon used to say the essence
of the New Zealand life was on the New
Zealand beach. And I thought, we just
don’t have an intellectually rich enough
culture.Publication of that article was a significant
turning point in your career, wasn’t it?
It became quite important in my life,
because the people in the museum
community got me to come and talk
at a museum conference. As a result ofthat, [Te Papa’s chief executive] Cheryll
Sotheran tapped me on the shoulder and
got me to go and work there. So, yes, that
little article had quite a long-term effect.But even before that, you were making your
name, in every sense, at the Listener.
Yes, I wrote an ill-tempered letter to the
editor, attacking the sort of hero wor-
ship of John Beaglehole, the great New
Zealand historian, arguing that he was
basically only interested in 18th-century
Britain rather than 20th-century New
Zealand. And Ian Cross, the magazine’s
editor at the time, who was a greatcultural nationalist, thought this was
great. He asked me to write editorials once
a month. And not only did he ask me to
do that, but also he actually changed my
name, because I’d signed my letter J.O.C.
Phillips. Cross told me, “This is a people’s
magazine, you can’t have a poofy set of
initials”, so I said, “Okay, people call me
Joc, so now I will be Jock with a k. Even
my parents eventually called me Jock.As you delved further into New Zealand
history, turning away from your parents’
British orientation, they upped sticks and
retired to the UK. How did that affect you?
It came as a bit of a shock. My father
had been in the British Army in World
War II and had always aspired to live in
England. One day, he asked my mother,
“What would you do if I died?”, and she
said she’d go and live in England. She
asked him what he’d do if she died, and
he said he would go and live in England.
So they said, “Why don’t we do it now,
together?” And they did and it was the
best thing; they were very happy. My
father spent all his time watching cricket,
as they lived near the Kent County
Cricket grounds, and they were close to
mainland Europe.Your 1987 book, A Man’s Country?, lookingPH at Kiwi male stereotypes, was quite
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Listener editor Ian Cross
told me, “This is a people’s
magazine, you can’t have
a poofy set of initials”,so I said, “Okay, people
call me Joc, so now Iwill be Jock with a k.”
- Phillips’ mother, Pauline, with her parents, Dorothy and Selby Palmer, going to a garden party
at Buckingham Palace in 1938. 2. With his parents and sisters in 1966 on the day that his father was
announced as the University of Canterbury’s new vice-chancellor. 3. Phillips, left, on the way to a
protest against the visit to New Zealand by US President Lyndon Johnson and his wife in 1966. 4.
With Phillida Bunkle on their wedding day at Cape Cod in 1971. 5. In 2007. 6. Tramping with Frida
Harper in 2000.
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