Ellie Cawthorne: You argue in the book that celebrity is a
slippery concept. How do you define it?
Greg Jenner: When I began writing, I made the foolish assumption
that there would be a clear-cut definition of celebrity. But a year-and-
a-half later, I still couldn’t find one. So I’ve come up with my own.
Firstly, a celebrity has to have something about them that’s distinc-
tive, recognisable and iconic. They are someone who is known to
strangers, but they don’t know the strangers in return – that’s called
‘parasocial intimacy’ – and their fame is spread through the mass
media: they appear in newspapers and on the telly and radio.
But it’s not enough for someone to be professionally interesting –
they also need to have a private life that is fascinating to the public.
On this basis, I would make the controversial argument that Sir David
Attenborough is not a celebrity because, while I know an enormous
amount about his career, I don’t know anything about his life.
Finally, I would argue that celebrity requires the existence of a
commercial marketplace based on the person’s fame – basically a
micro-economy where other people can make money from them.How far back do you trace our appetite for celebrity culture?
Whether it’s the Kardashians, reality stars or social media influencers,
people are often accused these days of being famous for being famous,
but that’s actually nothing new. People were saying exactly the same
thing back in the 18th century. In his 1786 book The Age of Genius!
Thomas Busby basically moaned that the good old days of people
being famous for proper reasons were gone,
and now there was just a load of pretty
women in nice dresses.
I would argue that celebrity culture really
began in the early 1700s, when there was a
surge in what’s called the ‘public sphere’ in
Britain and France. Suddenly, people realised
that they were part of a wider society and
they wanted to join in. In the cities, there was
a new energy and liveliness – people gossip-
ing in taverns, coffee houses and theatres.
Around the same time, there’s also a switch
towards slightly more dull royals, and you
see a movement away from courts as the
centres of spectacle. Increasingly, the patrons
who commissioned the creative arts weren’t
royals but ordinary people.
But while I argue that celebrity is in no
way new, it has undoubtedly accelerated.
Celebrity in the 18th century obviously hadnowhere near the same kind of intensity and neon energy as in
the modern age. Technology has played an enormous part in that.
The 19th century supercharged celebrity in ways that made the
18th century look quite parochial. For example, trains and steamships
meant that you could start doing transatlantic tours. Dickens
made [the equivalent of] around £30m touring America. And of
course, in the 20th century, radio, movies and television arrived,
and suddenly a celebrity could reach audiences across the globe.Did you identify any character traits that made someone a good
candidate for becoming a celebrity?
There are some people in my book who would have probably ended up
famous regardless of how they tried it. They had charisma. There was
something just innately fascinating or naturally alluring about them.
Someone like Lord Byron would fall into this category. Admittedly,
he had advantages that others didn’t, but he also oozed charisma as
this radical, sexy, scandalous, romantic figure. If he hadn’t made it in
poetry, I think he would have made it another way.
On the other hand, there were people like Edmund Kean, whose
story is just extraordinary. He was a total nobody – an alcoholic actor
living a hand-to-mouth existence. At one point, Kean and his preg-
nant wife walked 180 miles from Birmingham to Swansea in the
summer heat for a gig, sleeping rough along the way because they
couldn’t afford to stay in taverns.
But then, out of nowhere, he had an incredible breakthrough.
The Drury Lane Theatre was in huge financial trouble. They were
throwing mud at the wall, so they found some random bloke in Exeter
(Kean) and decided to take a chance on him. It’s the equivalent of
finding a street busker and putting them on stage in Las Vegas. But,
believe it or not, it worked! Kean’s opening performance went amaz-
ingly, and by a stroke of good luck, a couple of influential journalists
were there and wrote incredible reviews. Within a week Kean was
known throughout London, within a month he was a superstar.
He went on to become one of the defining actors of the 19th century,
but he could just as easily have died in a ditch.You argue that we tend to apply very binary moral standards to
our celebrities. How so?
This is something you see playing out on Twitter, but it’s been happen-
ing since at least the 1700s. Celebrities are forged into heroes because
people need role models and rallying figures. Take George Washing-
ton. He was turned into a celebrity superhero, and by the end of his
life, biographies were saying things like, “He never lied as a child.”
That’s ridiculous – of course he did! But he was turned into a saint.
However, as well as creating heroes, society could also createINTERVIEW / GREG JENNER“Getting thrilled, titillated or angry at
celebrities can change how we think”GREG JENNER tells Ellie Cawthorne about his star-studded new book, which shines a light
on the history of celebrity, taking in fame, fortune and calamitous falls from graceDead Famous:
An Unexpected
History of Celebrity
from Bronze Age
to Silver Screen
by Greg Jenner
(Orion, 400 pages, £18.99)BOOKSINTERVIEW
EllieCawthorne:Youarguein thebookthat celebrity is a
slipperyconcept.Howdo you defineit?
GregJenner:WhenI beganwriting,I madethefoolishassumption
thattherewouldbea clear-cutdefinitionofcelebrity.Buta year-and-
a-halflater,I stillcouldn’tfindone.SoI’vecomeupwithmyown.
Firstly,a celebrityhastohavesomethingaboutthemthat’sdistinc-
tive,recognisableandiconic.Theyaresomeonewhois knownto
strangers,buttheydon’tknowthestrangersinreturn– that’scalled
‘parasocialintimacy’– andtheirfameis spreadthroughthemass
media:theyappearinnewspapersandonthetellyandradio.
Butit’snotenoughforsomeonetobeprofessionallyinteresting–
theyalsoneedtohavea privatelifethatis fascinatingtothepublic.
Onthisbasis,I wouldmakethecontroversialargumentthatSirDavid
Attenboroughisnota celebritybecause,whileI knowanenormous
amountabouthiscareer,I don’tknowanythingabouthislife.
Finally,I wouldarguethatcelebrityrequirestheexistenceofa
commercialmarketplacebasedontheperson’sfame– basicallya
micro-economy where other people can make money from them.Howfar backdo you traceour appetitefor celebrityculture?
Whetherit’stheKardashians,realitystarsorsocialmediainfluencers,
peopleareoftenaccusedthesedaysofbeingfamousforbeingfamous,
butthat’sactuallynothingnew.Peopleweresayingexactlythesame
thingbackinthe18thcentury.Inhis 1786 bookTheAgeofGenius!
Thomas Busby basicallymoanedthatthegoodolddaysofpeople
beingfamousforproperreasonsweregone,
andnowtherewasjusta load of pretty
womeninnicedresses.
I wouldarguethatcelebrityculturereally
beganintheearly1700s,whentherewasa
surgeinwhat’scalledthe‘publicsphere’in
BritainandFrance.Suddenly,peoplerealised
thattheywerepartofa widersocietyand
theywantedtojoinin.Inthecities,therewas
a newenergyandliveliness– peoplegossip-
ingintaverns,coffeehousesandtheatres.
Aroundthesametime,there’salsoa switch
towardsslightlymoredullroyals,andyou
seea movementawayfromcourtsasthe
centresofspectacle.Increasingly,thepatrons
whocommissionedthecreative arts weren’t
royalsbutordinarypeople.
ButwhileI arguethatcelebrityis inno
waynew,it hasundoubtedlyaccelerated.
Celebrity in the 18th century obviously hadnowherenearthesamekindofintensityandneonenergyasin
themodernage.Technologyhasplayedanenormouspartinthat.
The19thcenturysuperchargedcelebrityinwaysthatmadethe
18thcenturylookquiteparochial.Forexample,trainsandsteamships
meantthatyoucouldstartdoingtransatlantictours.Dickens
made[theequivalentof]around£30mtouringAmerica.Andof
course,inthe20thcentury,radio,moviesandtelevisionarrived,
and suddenly a celebrity could reach audiences across the globe.Didyouidentifyanycharactertraitsthat made someone a good
candidatefor becominga celebrity?
Therearesomepeopleinmybookwhowouldhaveprobablyendedup
famousregardlessofhowtheytriedit.Theyhadcharisma.Therewas
somethingjustinnatelyfascinatingornaturallyalluringaboutthem.
SomeonelikeLordByronwouldfallintothiscategory.Admittedly,
hehadadvantagesthatothersdidn’t,buthealsooozedcharismaas
thisradical,sexy,scandalous,romanticfigure.If hehadn’t made it in
poetry,I thinkhewouldhavemadeit anotherway.
Ontheotherhand,therewerepeoplelikeEdmundKean,whose
storyis justextraordinary.Hewasa totalnobody– analcoholicactor
livinga hand-to-mouthexistence.Atonepoint,Keanandhispreg-
nantwifewalked 180 milesfromBirminghamtoSwanseainthe
summerheatfora gig,sleepingrough along the way because they
couldn’taffordtostayintaverns.
Butthen,outofnowhere,hehadanincrediblebreakthrough.
TheDruryLaneTheatrewasinhugefinancialtrouble.Theywere
throwingmudatthewall,sotheyfoundsomerandomblokeinExeter
(Kean)anddecidedtotakea chanceonhim.It’stheequivalentof
findinga streetbuskerandputtingthemonstageinLasVegas.But,
believeit ornot,it worked!Kean’sopeningperformancewentamaz-
ingly,andbya strokeofgoodluck,a coupleofinfluentialjournalists
werethereandwroteincrediblereviews.Withina weekKeanwas
knownthroughoutLondon,withina monthhewasa superstar.
Hewentontobecomeoneofthedefiningactorsof the 19th century,
but he could just as easily have died in a ditch.Youarguethatwetendto apply very binary moral standards to
ourcelebrities.Howso?
Thisis somethingyouseeplayingoutonTwitter,butit’sbeenhappen-
ingsinceatleastthe1700s.Celebritiesareforgedintoheroesbecause
peopleneedrolemodelsandrallyingfigures.TakeGeorgeWashing-
ton.Hewasturnedintoa celebritysuperhero,andbytheendofhis
life,biographiesweresayingthingslike,“Heneverliedasa child.”
That’sridiculous– ofcoursehedid!Buthewasturnedintoa saint.
However, as well as creating heroes, society could also createINTERVIEW / GREG JENNER“Getting thrilled, titillated or angryatcelebrities can change how we think”GREGJENNERtellsEllieCawthorneabouthisstar-studdednewbook,whichshines a lighton the history of celebrity, taking in fame, fortune and calamitous falls from graceDeadFamous:
AnUnexpected
Historyof Celebrity
fromBronzeAge
to SilverScreen
byGregJenner
(Orion, 400 pages, £18.99)BOOKS
INTERVIEW