28 | Sight&Sound | April 2020
TILDA SWINTONit’s not about just being stuck with two genders. It’s about
movement and endless transformation. And it’s got much
more to do with class – or rather it’s a criticism of class structure and
of national pride, all of that. She does not leave any prisoners, really.
IS: Other than Powell and Pressburger, what other, older
British cinema grabbed you when you were younger?
TS: Oh, Hitchcock. And Kind Hearts and Coronets [1949]. I can’t tell you
how many times I’ve seen that film. Alec Guinness and Peter Sellers are
patron saints of mine. And I have the nerve to want to be influenced
by them. (Laughs) They are really extraordinary. My love for Alec
Guinness was particularly about Kind Hearts and Coronets. That tickles
me still. And one of the reasons is because I come from a family who
all look like each other. And it’s just so obvious everybody gets played
by the same person. I must have been about 12 when I saw it. It tickled
me senseless, and I love him. Peter Sellers’s ability – particularly in
collaboration with Kubrick – that kind of protean wit that he parlayed
in those films, and thinking of him in Lolita [1961] and particularly
Dr. Strangelove [1963]. I’ve always loved multiple performances..
What else? Well, for my generation, the identity of British cinema,
English cinema, was also Carry On films. And I relish that sauciness and
irreverence and nonsense. And Derek had that in him – that silliness
and that crudeness. That’s very important... Also that handmade,
personal – clunky sometimes – unvarnished thing. That’s what English
filmmaking in particular was really about. And Derek came out of
that. It’s like a school play! The school of the school play in cinema!
IS: I can see that tendency in many of your films, even recent ones.
TS: Yeah! Bong Joon Ho absolutely has that going for him. Lynn
Hershman-Leeson, who I worked with on Teknolust [2002] and other
films, has that going on for her. I didn’t know we were going to
be talking about Carry On. (Laughs) But one of the things I loved
about Carry On is that you could tell what fun it was to make those
films – I know that there are dark memoirs about awful goings-on,
but on the whole there are also rather wonderful memoirs. How it
was a group of mates who were having a bit of a laugh and rolling
from one thing to another. That was not dissimilar to what I call
‘Jarmania’, which is the same core people who just rolled on and on.
IS: If you were born before cinema, what would you have done?
TS: You’re asking the question my son asked when he said, “What
were people’s dreams like before cinema was invented?” I always
say – and people think I’m laughing, but I actually mean it – I was
really interested in flat racing. And ideally, I would have loved to have
been a jockey, but I was too tall. I don’t know, probably I would’ve
been a gambler. Or I would’ve been a writer about flat racing.
IS: Not theatre?
TS: I did work in the theatre. When I met Derek, I was at the Royal
Shakespeare Company and on the verge of stopping being a performer
completely because of the experience. I felt, “Well, this is not interesting.”
It’s not all live work – I love live
music, dance and stand-up, for
example. But [with theatre] I
think it’s the agreement that
you’re all going to sit and watch
and not do anything and that
these people on stage are going to
do their thing and never the
twain shall meet. The last piece of
theatre I did was a one-woman
show, which I asked John
Maybury to make into the film
Man to Man [1992]. It really
spoiled me for theatre, because I loved it so much. Because it was
essentially stand-up and I was talking to the audience a lot. It was quite
chaotic and mad and I love that feeling of chaos. But that burst my
bubble. I don’t think I could have gone back to the fourth wall after that.
IS: You also don’t do television series...
TS: This is not to be rude to theatre or to television, it’s just that
I’m really interested in cinema and living there. To tailor your
question, if cinema dried up would I do television? I don’t know.
Probably not. I don’t think about it much. There was a time before
I had my children when I watched a lot of television. But I haven’t
had a television for a very long time, so I’m quite out of touch.ON COLLABORATION
IS: What is it about long-term collaborations – from Jarman to
Luca Guadagnino and the Coen brothers – that appeals to you?
TS: Simply, the practice of making work out of an engaging and
enjoyable conversation with someone you trust and love has to be the
best of all possible fun. The bald fact is that I don’t know any other way
to do it. With Derek I was able to establish both a way of performance- supremely autobiographical, very often improvised, frequently
silent – and a way of working as a filmmaker: in consultation about
concept and script, funding, framing, editing, distribution. This
meant that from the very outset I was respected as a collaborator.
IS: Thinking of your more fantastical creations, let’s take Snowpiercer
[2013]. The character Mason as originally specified in the script is a
mild-mannered man, but your Mason is totally different. How did you work
collectively to realise this very outré, Margaret Thatcher-like figure?
TS: Bong Joon Ho and Catherine George, the costume designer, who I
knew already from working with her on We Need to Talk About Kevin
[2010], came to my house and had lunch and then we went afterwards
to the drawing room next door and dressed up. We had a number of
photographs we produced for each other – it was like playing Snap! –
of creatures that this character, Mason, could be. We initially were very
clear that we wanted this person to be slightly mysterious, a politician
TILDA SWINTON ON...
AN ABANDONED MUSIC VIDEO WITH MICHAEL POWELL AND NEW ORDERIn 1988 producer Michael H. Shamberg
approached Michael Powell with the idea of
working with New Order. Powell proposed
the idea of a short film based around Charles
Kingsley’s poem ‘The Sands of Dee’. The poem
tells the tragic tale of a shepherdess who gets
stranded and drowns in the incoming tide. The
film was never made due to production delays
(Powell and Pressburger fan and New Order
frontman Bernard Sumner wrote in his memoir
that the band chose, against his wishes, to workon the 1990 World Cup Song for the English
football team instead) and Powell’s death in- Powell described a close-up of Swinton
dead in the salmon nets as being “box office”.
“Michael Powell and I knew each other
already because Sally [Potter] and I were
in touch with him for several years before
we shot Orlando. New Order asked him
to do a video and he thought of me. It
was going to be called ‘The Sands of Dee’,
and we were going to shoot it on the Dee
Estuary [on the England/Wales border near
Liverpool], and it was me and a dog. And
I remember distinctly the treatment said,
“If Tilda has a dog of her own, that would
be the best.” And at that stage I didn’t have
a dog of my own, so I remember thinking,
“Oh, that’s a bit of a shame.” But I just
remember it had the Archers logo on it. I
mean, it was such an amazing thing. The
combination of having the Archers logo
and my name typed – I couldn’t believe it.”‘ For my generation,
the identity of
British cinema was
also ‘Carry On’ films.
And Derek Jarman
had that in him –
that silliness and
that crudeness’