42 newyork| october12–25, 2020
You almost couldn’t imaginea more
dramatic or explicit failure offederal
leadership. Yet I look around, especially
at our peer countries in Europe,andI see
the U.S. has fared poorly comparedwith
most of our peer countries butnotcat-
egorically worse in deaths permillion,
for instance.^9 Outside the countriesof
East and Southeast Asia, there are very
few success stories anywhere. Sohow
should we think about the particular
responsibility of the Trump administra-
tion versus just what it meanstobe
fighting a pandemic in a stateofigno-
rance and on the fly?
I question your quantifiableassump-
tions of success. This country hada later
wave, right? The other countries wereearly.
But you look at what Italy and theU.K.and
Fr ance and Spain lose per day now.They’re
losing 50, 100 lives. We’re losinga thou-
sand. So on the numbers, we’re ina much
worse position than they are.
Second, they all nationalized the
response. And whatever happenedearly
on—Boris Johnson, etc.—theyallgotit
certainly by March. And we stillhadthis
up until today, a federal disconnect,right,
where the president still wouldn’t weara
mask. It became a politicized issueand
divided the nation. And any ofthese
issues, be it social crisis, post-pandemic,
environmental action, you oughttobe
unified. These are controversial,hard
policies. You have to be unified asa
nation. A divided nation is nevergoingto
do this.
So in terms of what was withinyour
control and your purview as governor,do
you have any regrets about howyouhan-
dled the spring? I know in your bookyou
defendyourresponseonnursinghomes.^10
Whatdoyouregret?
Masks.We werethefirststateinthe
nationtomandatemasks,butI should
havedoneit earlier.^11
Howbiga differencedoyouthinkthat
wouldhavemade?
Well,here’s what I’ll neverknow. It’smis-
leadingtosayyoucouldhavedoneany-
thingjustbyestablishinga government
policy. Governmentcouldn’tdoany of
thesethingsonitsown.They hadtobe
sociallyaccepted.CouldI haveconvinced
shouldn’t leave your house. You can’t go to
school. You can’t go to work. You have to
wear a mask. You can’t come within six
feet of another person.” While the presi-
dent is saying, “It’s all baloney.”
That’s why the briefings were incredible,
David. How did that happen? People
wanted information. They tuned in, and
the communication was on a wholly differ-
ent level. There was a sincerity and authen-
ticity and a credibility that they discerned
from the briefings. And they believed it.
And you know they believed it because in
19 days, they did things that were unimagi-
nable two weeks before.
Let me give you one other first- perspective
mistake, if I could have done it over again.
You now have Trump telling Woodward he
knew what was happening, right?^12
Yeah.
Which is sort of an interestingparallel
because, if this is true what they’re saying
today, that he had a test 72 hours ago,^13
which is what the doctor said today, that
means he knew he was positive, and he did
the whole day of campaigningin New
Jersey after they knew he was positive.
Yeah, it’s criminal, really.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, literally, people have been pros-
ecuted for transmitting HIV knowingly.
That’s exactly right. And it’s a total paral-
lel to Woodward saying Trump told him in
February this was terrible, but he wasn’t
going to tell the American people.
He didn’t want us to know.
It’s a parallel. In February, New York
State was not authorized to do any tests.
The CDC was doing all the tests. They had
the testing protocol, literally the reagents,
in the formula. And we were sending all
oursamplestothemtotest.Andthey were
veryslowinturningaroundthesamples.
I thoughttheywerejust slowandincompe-
tent.Nowyouhavetowonder:Werethey
slowandincompetent,orthey just didn’t
wantustoknowtheviruswashere?It
wouldhavebeenillegalformetodothe
testswithoutsendingthemtotheCDCin
February. Butinretrospect,I wouldhave
doneit anyway. I wouldhavetoldthemto
gotohell.
Let’stalkaboutschools. Americaishav-
inga muchhardertimeopeningschoolsinAccordingtoOurWorldin
Data,theU.S.hashad 642
deathspermillionpeople;
Spainhashad699,theU.K.
627,andItaly 597. Peruhas
beenhithardest,with1,008
de o has
ha n;
Ca“To behonestwithyou,
I wantedtoalwaysplay it
down.I stilllike playingit
downbecauseI don’t want
tocreatea panic,” Trump
saidina February interview
withBobWoodwardforthe
journalist’s bookRage.Abouta quarterofthestate’sCOVID-19deathswere
innursinghomes.Cuomohasbeen criticizedfor
issuingguidancethat nursinghomescouldn’t
refuse toaccepta coronaviruspatient“solelyon
thebasis”oftheirdiagnosisandgivingliability
protectionstonursinghomes.In thebook,hecalls
the trategyanda Fox
Ne ge hispolicies
cau hewrites,bluntly,
“Itwasa lie.”the people of this state to wear masks ear-
lier? Could I have effectively convinced the
state of the severity faster than 19 days?
And here’s the flip side: If you pull the trig-
ger and you were wrong, if you ever articu-
late a policy and the people don’t follow it,
your credibility is gone. You only get one
misfire. Do you know what I mean?
But masks is an interesting one
because, even as the public-health guid-
ance was mixed, we did see all across Asia
everybody preemptively start to wear
masks, as they do not just when there’s a
respiratory epidemic but even in the case
of a normal flu season. And it probably did
quite dramatically reduce their experi-
ence with the disease, although there are
other factors there as well, of course.
You’ll never know, because it’s not like
for 19 days I was communicating in a vac-
uum. The president of the United States
was communicating the exact opposite. I’m
saying, “We’re going to have to close down
everything.” He’s saying, “This is going to be
gone by Easter.” He’s saying it’s a hoax.
And even Fauci was advising against
mask-wearing for quite a long time, just
because the science was so confused on
that point. That could turn out to be the
most consequential misstep in the whole
American response.
Yes. Surgeon general tweets there’s no
reason to wear a mask, leave it to health-
care officials. Now, in light of all of that, I’m
saying “Wear a mask.” But you have the
president of the United States saying it’s
bullshit. You have the surgeon general say-
ing it’s nonsense. You’re having Fauci saying
it’s not worth it. So this is not in a vacuum,
and I can’t announce a policy that people
reject or don’t wholeheartedly accept.
The challenge isespecially acute
becauseyou’re doingsomethingthepub-
licwouldhaveconsideredcompletelyhys-
tericaljusta fewweeksbefore.
It ’s just unrealandhysterical.It isso
intrusive.Whendoesgovernmentintrude
onyourpersonallifethatway?“Weara
seatbelt.” “Youhavenobusinesstelling
metoweara seatbelt.” “Don’t textand
drive.”“Iresentyoutryingtocontrolmy
personalbehavior.” “Idon’t thinkyou
shoulddrinkuntilyou’re21.” “That’san
intrusion.” Now we tell them, “You
- De Blasio had 12.
advised face
coverings two
weeks earlier, only
to have Cuomo
question the
guidance.
- De Blasio had 12.