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who wants to dispute it, whether it’s someone fun-loving or the serious type, as to
whether female human nature is capable of sharing in all the work that belongs to the
nature of the male kind, or not in any at all, or in some sorts and not others, and whether
in particular this last applies to things connected with war? Wouldn’t someone be likely
to get to the end of the subject most beautifully by starting off the most beautifully in
this way?”
“By far,” he said.
“Then do you want us to carry on the dispute ourselves against ourselves, on
behalf of the others,” I said, “so that the opposing argument won’t be under siege
undefended?”
“There’s no reason not to,” he said.
“So let’s say, on their behalf, ‘Socrates and Glaucon, there’s no need for anyone
else to dispute with you, because you yourselves, at the beginning of the process of set-
tling the city that you founded, agreed that each one person had to do the one thing that
properly belonged to him by nature.’ ”
“Suppose we did agree to that; how could we not?”
“‘Well is there any way that a woman isn’t completely different from a man in her
nature?’”
“How could she not be different?”
“Then isn’t it also appropriate to assign each of them different work that’s in
accord with their nature?”
“Of course.”
“So why aren’t you mistaken now and contradicting yourselves, when you also
declare that men and women ought to do the same things, despite having the most
diverse natures? Will you be able to make any defense against this, you amazing
fellow?”
“Not very easily, just on the spur of the moment,” he said; “but I’ll ask you, in
fact I am asking you, to be the interpreter of the argument on our side too, whatever
it is.”
“This is what I was afraid of a long time ago, Glaucon,” I said, “as well as many
other things I foresaw, and I was reluctant to touch on the law about the way of having
and bringing up women and children.”
“No, by Zeus,” he said, “it seems like it’s no easy matter to digest.”
“No, it’s not,” I said. “But it’s like this: whether one falls into a little swimming
tank or into the middle of the biggest sea, all the same one just swims none the less.”
“Quite so.”
“Well then, don’t we too have to swim and try to save ourselves from the argu-
ment, and just hope for some dolphin to pick us up on his back or for some other sort of
rescue that’s hard to count on?”
“It looks that way,” he said.
“Come on then,” I said, “let’s find a way out somewhere if we can. Because we’re
agreed that a different nature needs to follow a different pursuit, and that a woman and
a man are different in nature; but we’re claiming now that these different natures need to
follow the same pursuits. Are these the things we’re accused of?”
“Precisely.”
“Oh Glaucon,” I said, “what a noble power the debater’s art has.”
“Why in particular?”
“Because many people even seem to me to fall into it unwillingly,” I said, “and
imagine they’re not being contentious but having a conversation, because they’re not
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