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about these things, would be banned from saying what he believes by no inconsiderable
man? So it’s more like it for you to speak, since you do claim to know and to have some-
thing to say. So don’t do anything else but gratify me by answering, and don’t be grudging
about teaching Glaucon here as well as the others.”
And when I’d said these things, Glaucon and the others kept begging him not to
do otherwise. And Thrasymachus was obviously longing to speak in order to be well
thought of, believing that he had an answer of overwhelming beauty. But he made a
pretense of battling eagerly for me to be the one that answered. But making an end of
this, he gave way, and then said, “This is the wisdom of Socrates; he himself is not
willing to teach, but he goes around learning from others and doesn’t even pay them
any gratitude.”
“In saying that I learn from others,” I said, “you tell the truth, Thrasymachus, but
when you claim that I don’t pay for it in full with gratitude, you lie, for I pay all that is
in my power. I have the power only to show appreciation, since I don’t have money. And
how eagerly I do this, if anyone seems to me to speak well, you’ll know very well right
away when you answer, for I imagine you’ll speak well.”
“Then listen,” he said. “I assert that what’s just is nothing other than what’s
advantageous to the stronger. So why don’t you show appreciation? But you won’t be
willing to.”
“First I need to understand what you mean,” I said, “since now I don’t yet know.
You claim that what’s advantageous to the stronger is just. Now whatever do you mean
by this, Thrasymachus? For I’m sure you’re not saying this sort of thing: that if
Polydamas the no-holds-barred wrestler is stronger than we are, and bull’s meat is
advantageous to him for his body, this food would also be advantageous, and at the
same time just, for us who are weaker than he is.”
“You’re nauseating, Socrates,” he said, “and you grab hold of the statement in the
way that you can do it the most damage.”
“Not at all, most excellent man,” I said, “just say more clearly what you mean.”
“So you don’t know,” he said, “that some cities are run tyrannically, some demo-
cratically, and some aristocratically?”
“How could I not?”
“And so this prevails in strength in each city, the ruling part?”
“Certainly.”
“And each ruling power sets up laws for the advantage of itself, a democracy
setting up democratic ones, a tyranny tyrannical ones, and the others likewise. And
having set them up, they declare that this, what’s advantageous for them, is just for
those who are ruled, and they chastise someone who transgresses it as a lawbreaker
and a person doing injustice. So this, you most skillful one, is what I’m saying, that
the same thing is just in all cities, what’s advantageous to the established ruling
power. And this surely prevails in strength, so the conclusion, for someone who rea-
sons correctly, is that the same thing is just everywhere, what’s advantageous to the
stronger.”
“Now,” I said, “I understand what you mean. But whether it’s true or not, I’ll try
to learn. So you too answer that the advantageous is just, Thrasymachus, even though
you made a prohibition for me that I could not give this answer, though there is added to
it ‘for the stronger.’ ”
“A small addendum, no doubt,” he said.
“It’s not clear yet whether it’s a big one. But it is clear that whether you’re speak-
ing the truth needs to be examined. For since you’re saying and I’m agreeing that what’s
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