The Times Magazine 19about, and reviews were full of comments on
my skin colour; nothing to do with my voice,
my talent or my interpretation of the role.
I found that very destabilising.”
There’s a section of the new BBC
documentary where he speaks to Conservative
politician and Equalities minister Kemi
Badenoch, who dismisses the idea that racism
may have played a role in the high number
of BAME Covid deaths. He says in the film
that he finds such a view “frustrating. If we
can’t get those in power to acknowledge the
damage systemic racism is doing to the health
of millions of people then I believe we face an
uphill struggle to effect positive change.”
I ask what he made of her argument.
“I found it astonishing that there was no
acknowledgement of systemic racism.” He
shakes his head and adjusts his thick-rimmed
spectacles. “Even Joe Biden the other day
talked about systemic racism. I find it mind-
boggling, because unless you acknowledge
you drink too much, you’re not going to stop
drinking. Unless you acknowledge you’re
taking too many drugs, you’re not going to
stop taking too many drugs. You’ve got to
acknowledge there’s a problem.”
How does he make sense of black
politicians like Badenoch? “Maybe it’s their
experience. We’re not a monolithic group,
and there are some who will say, ‘No, no, no,
I think Britain’s wonderful. I’ve never had a
moment of racism and racism doesn’t exist.’”
Does he think we’re more screwed up
about race than the USA? “Oh, they are far
more f***ed up! But the thing is, they talk
about it, and are honest about it, and I’ll turn
my TV on now and I’ll have three black news
anchors with four black guests, all of whom run
their own companies, and it’s a lively discussion
on the realities of being black in America.
You wouldn’t have that in England, and if you
did, somebody would be complaining about
it, because it’s excluding white people. It’s not
meant to include white people! It’s a no-holds-
barred discussion on race. And it’s an honest
one. It’s very rare to find that in England.”
He adds that the British black community
doesn’t have the same kind of clout or
power as it does in America where there are
institutions such as the National Association
for the Advancement of Colored People, and
individuals like Al Sharpton to cajole and
lobby. But he concedes that things are much
better than when he was growing up.
“Undoubtedly there are elements that are
better: at least we do have black politicians
now; at least we do have a few black decision-
makers getting into the positions of power.
It’s beginning, slowly. You’ve got a generation
of young black actors who are having a far
better time than we had. They are coming
out of drama school now and going straight
to Hollywood, getting a Netflix gig, shootingin Mexico: they don’t give a shit about the BBC
or getting a job on ITV. But on the flip side of
that, you still get people complaining when a
black family appears in the Sainsbury’s advert.”
There’s a dark laugh and pause, during
which I notice a foam roller on the floor
behind him, and the reflection of a ring light
in his glasses. We move onto the topic of
last year’s Black Lives Matter protests, which
occurred when he was at home. He found
himself being endlessly canvassed by the
media for his opinion. “Everyone’s ringing me
for comments, and I’m like, ‘Just go away. I
don’t want to talk about this, it’s painful.’ A lot
of us have this deep trauma when we discuss
issues of racism. For a second there, people
were listening to us and it was actually quite
emotional. I found it quite difficult talking
about it. Particularly when you’re living in a
f***ing world with these right-wing batshit-
crazed people who just deny your existence.”
These “crazies” are so persistent that he
comes off social networking for months at
a time and now has a rule of not looking at
it before midday. “The worst thing you can
do is wake up at half-six in the morning, get
your phone out, look at Twitter and [read a
message saying] ‘You black bastard.’ Your day
is f***ing ruined. Now I hardly look at it.”
He says he finds the discussion of race in
Britain incredibly basic – “If we’re still arguing
whether racism exists or not, we can’t have a
conversation. At least acknowledge that there’s
a problem, and then we can start to talk about
the nuances.” And touching upon the historic
explanations for such racism, he recalls that
the debt the nation took on when it paid
£20 million compensation to slave owners
on Abolition (nothing was paid to slaves
themselves) was not paid off until recently.
In turn, this produces the news that he has
recently been back to meet Lascelles, now the
Earl of Harewood, at Harewood House – for a
new four-part Channel 5 series on slavery.“I’d met him before, but in the light of
Black Lives Matter and George Floyd, it
was odd. I drove onto the Harewood Estate
and you’re looking at the name, Harewood,
everywhere, and staying in Harewood Cottage.
It’s a beautiful place, and he’s actually a nice
guy. At least he’s been the first incumbent of
Harewood who has acknowledged where the
money came from, and he’s been honest about
it. He’s got bursaries trying to help your young
inner-city kids, and he’s got rooms dedicated
to black art; the library’s got books on slavery.
“But when he showed me a picture of the
2nd Earl of Harewood, the man who owned
my great-great-great-great grandfather... He
enslaved them, beat them, raped them and all
that malarkey. And I remember sitting in this
room full of gold and fine art and beautiful
cutlery and gilt-edged paintings, and I just
thought, ‘The whole thing’s disgusting, because
nowhere, nowhere is there a single mention
or picture of the people who worked all day
to fund it. It’s like we’re invisible.’”
The mention of another documentary
highlights the fact that when Harewood does
come back to Britain, he is often even busier
than when officially “working” in America.
The punishing schedule, combined with the
emotional labour of making and promoting
his documentary about a psychiatric episode,
made him realise he can’t carry on like this.
“A couple of interviews, I literally started
blubbing. It probably made great radio, but
I was just very, very vulnerable. I thought,
‘I can’t put myself in this position.’ I didn’t realise
how psychologically difficult the documentary
was going to be. I was reeling from what I was
finding out. I wasn’t sleeping, and I was like,
‘Why am I in a hotel in Birmingham? I should
be at home with my wife and kids. What the
f*** am I doing here?’ It started to get to me.
I struggled to shoot that doc and stay sane.”
He has since made it a priority not to
overwork. For the first time in his career he is
saying “no” to work, and he tells me that when
he comes home later this year, he will hang
around in Britain and “probably” set up his
own production company.
“It’s going to be interesting to see how the
white space relates to me now.” What kind
of work will he produce? It’s exciting that we
might be getting one of our greatest actors back.
“Content which is maybe black-centric, but
not always so. I think the success of something
like Small Axe has proven that there’s a wealth
of stories from our history that we haven’t
touched upon yet. I’d certainly like to give
some of those a go. It’s going to be interesting
to see what happens, because I certainly won’t
be doing the jobs I used to do. I won’t be
doing those two-dimensional roles.” nWhy Is Covid Killing People of Colour? is on
BBC1 on March 2 at 9pm‘I was shown a picture
of the man who owned
my great-great-great-
great grandfather’
Being awarded the MBE in 2012GETTY IMAGES