with many different industries in it, including some fairly
sophisticated manufacturing. It’s economically quite successful, but
since it’s inserted into a capitalist economy, it’s no more committed
to sustainable growth than any other part of the capitalist economy
is.
Internally, it’s not worker-controlled—it’s manager-controlled. So
it’s a mixture of what’s sometimes called industrial democracy—
which means ownership, at least in principle, by the work force—
along with elements of hierarchic domination and control (as
opposed to worker management).
I mentioned earlier that businesses are about as close to strict
totalitarian structures as any human institutions are. Something like
Mondragón is considerably less so.
The coming eco-catastrophe
Radio listener: What’s happening in the growing economies in
Southeast Asia, China, etc.? Is it going to be another example of
capitalist exploitation, or can we expect to see some kind of change
in their awareness?
Right now, it’s catastrophic. In countries like Thailand or China,
ecological catastrophes are looming. These are countries where
growth is being fueled by multinational investors for whom the
environment is what’s called an “externality” (which means you
don’t pay any attention to it). So if you destroy the forests in
Thailand, say, that’s OK as long as you make a short-term profit out
of it.
In China, the disasters which lie not too far ahead could be
extraordinary—simply because of the country’s size. The same is
true throughout Southeast Asia.
But when the environmental pressures become such that the very
survival of people is jeopardized, do you see any change in the
actions?