O
f all wine pairings this is,
perhaps, one of the most
unlikely. Sitting across the
table from me are Will Lyons,
this magazine’s wine
columnist, and the TV
presenter Miquita Oliver.
One is a self-confessed
oenophile nerd, dressed in
a suit and never without a
pocket handkerchief; the other best known
as the ultra-cool host of cult Noughties
shows, from Channel 4’s Popworld to
The Month with Miquita on 4Music (and
currently co-presenter of The Sunday Times
Culture Show). Now they’ve come together
as co-hosts of The Sunday Times’s new
podcast, Wine Times. “I like to think of it
as a place where we discuss someone’s
greatest moments through the wine
they’ve enjoyed,” Lyons says.
“Who wouldn’t want to come in and
chat about their lives over a really good
bottle of wine?” Oliver adds.
The podcast — recorded each week at
Wadadli Kitchen, the east London restaurant
owned by Oliver’s mum, the chef Andi
Oliver — has been as much of a learning
experience for the TV star as it has for its
guests. “It’s not just Will, it’s Will and this
whole world of people I knew nothing about,
but he’s opened my eyes to it,” she says. “I’ve
learnt that monks made the first champagne
and that dessert wine can have up to 400g
of sugar per litre, which blew my mind.”
Oliver’s relationship with wine got off
to a ropey start. “In my crazy teenager
phase I drank way too much cheap white
wine, proper bottom-shelf newsagent
stuff, which put me off for years.”
Now things have changed. “Will has
helped me realign my relationship with
wine. For example, how whites can be paired
with red meat, and how red wine can go
with fish. That was out-of-control news.”
This doesn’t mean Lyons hasn’t learnt
a lot from his co-host too. And it’s not just
the fashion advice he receives after texting
his outfits to Oliver before the recordings.
After today’s interview the pair will record
an episode with the Grammy-winning jazz
singer Gregory Porter. “I didn’t know who
he was before,” Lyons laughs. “Miquita
had to tell me, but he’s just brilliant. I can’t
stop listening to him.”
The experience of tasting “primary”,
fruit-driven wines — the sauvignon blancs,
cabernet sauvignons and chardonnays of this
world — is, according to Lyons, not unlike
listening to pop music: they’re heavy-hitting
and feelgood songs we all know. “Think of
those wines like the greatest melody
makers of the 20th century — which are,
obviously, the Beatles, Abba, the Beach
Boys and the Commodores.”
“I’m sorry, what?” Oliver interjects.
“The Commodores? Of all the people
you could’ve said, Will, you’re picking the
Commodores?”however, tasting rather than drinking.
“Ed Gamble did drink a little,” Lyons says.
“Rob Rinder a little more,” Oliver adds.
Each episode — with its cork-popping,
glass-chinking, wine-glugging sound effects
— does leave you reaching for refreshment,
though. “Wine is a very sensory, evocative
experience,” Lyons points out.
“It’s a very ritualistic thing,” Oliver
agrees. “There’s so much to drinking wine
that isn’t about drinking wine.”
One thing that does take some getting
used to is listening to the hosts and their
guests ejecting mouthfuls into a spittoon
— a skill that took some practice.
“The first time I tried, I dribbled it all
down my chin,” Oliver admits. “You really
need to purse your lips and sort of fire it
into the bucket.”
If you’re a beginner, Lyons has some
unusual advice: “If you want to practise,
the best thing is to do it in the bath with
a pint of water and aim for the taps.”
“I’ve become quite attached to my little
spittoon,” Oliver says. “Will has a really fancy
gluggle jug. Mine’s just a clanky bucket.”
For novices, one of the biggest fears when
discussing wine is that you’ll either make a
fool of yourself in front of someone who
knows more than you, or sound pretentious.
The good news is that you don’t have to start
waffling about smooth tannins and long
finishes to describe what you like. “Don’t
worry if you can’t detect the fruits or the
aromas listed on the back of the bottle,”
Lyons says. “Ask yourself how it feels in
your mouth. Everyone can do that.Their pairing may be a surprising one, but
the dynamic works. Lyons is the fount of all
knowledge, passionately reeling off the
names of vineyards and grapes, while Oliver,
eager to learn, asks the questions, cracks the
jokes and stops Lyons “going off on one”.
Each bottle is carefully paired with the
guest. When the author and actress
Giovanna Fletcher, who is half Italian, came
on, they started the podcast with a bottle
of gavi to make her feel at home, then
moved on to a white rioja and a red from
the foothills of the Pyrenees to broaden her
horizons. For the comedian Ed Gamble,
who is diabetic, Lyons chose a low-sugar
pinot noir from New Zealand.
“We go on this magic-carpet journey
around the world, and as you travel you
unlock all these stories about people,”
Oliver says. You may think the duo have a
dreamy set-up, knocking back a couple of
bottles and chatting with their guests for
a few hours a week. Oliver and Lyons are,The Sunday Times Magazine • 41WILL’S TOP TIPS
1 Follow your interests. If you enjoy rosé,
try as many as you can; if you love France,
learn whatever you can about its wines2 Keep a notebook of what you like — and
what you don’t. Ask yourself: is it fruity or
floral? Woody, spicy or earthy? Vegetal or
buttery? These are the key descriptors3 If you can’t detect the aromas described
on the label, make a note of how the wine
felt in your mouth. Focus on the texture4 If you’re looking for value, try Argentina,
Portugal, southern Italy and Sicily for reds;
for whites, consider South African chenin
blanc and sparkling crémant from France5 Don’t drink your wine too cold. Domestic
fridges cool to about 5C, which is a little
too chilly and can numb the aromas. Take
the bottle out ten minutes before servingLeft: Miquita and
Will swap notes
at the 67 Pall Mall
wine club. Top:
Miquita presenting
Popworld with
Simon Amstell, 2001JON ATTENBOROUGH FOR THE SUNDAY TIMES MAGAZINE, C4, GETTY IMAGES