in the 1920s who wanted their own freedom and a decent salary, but
who didn’t frame this project in a palingenetic, dialectical manner,
tending toward the realization of an ideal. And this is why, I think, a
squatter in Detroit is very similar to a squatter in San Basilio in 1978.^6
They start from the immediacy of a need but also from a very sophis-
ticated immediacy of desire, that are completely independent from
the dialectical expectations that motivated, but also constrained, the
European workers’ movements in the 1900s. This is why, today, it is
much easier to establish a dialogue between American and Italian tra-
ditions. But these traditions, today, are no longer known to us.GM:Well, this also happens because they are not recognized as such: you
and I are talking of an ‘autonomist tradition’, but if you mention it to other
people ...Bifo:Yes, but this is a very interesting question: what do we mean
today by ‘European thought’? Because this also means asking what it
means to be European now that the most important grounding for
European thought, which basically was Hegelian dialectics, has col-
lapsed. Today, European thought is much more differentiated, much
more pragmatic than the German thought that had such a decisive
influence all over Europe. In the twentieth century, European thought
meant dialectics. Now, it means something much more similar to
Anglo-American experimental thought.
This is not an answer, because I can’t answer that kind of question.
But I am trying to open up a debate, a very important one, because we
are not talking about cultural ‘fads’.GM:Well, this is really important, because in the United States this is the
way it has been presented: here is the new cultural trend, ‘workerism’, we
have gone from Derrida to Italian ‘workerist’ theory!Bifo: Not at all! We are facing the possibility of conceiving a
de-centred world, and a non-dialectical future. That is, we are trying to
ground the future, and politics, on desire and on a psychological and
social composition that no longer has any historicist, logical frame-
work. This is why this is an important issue, and not simply a cultural
fad.GM:I think so too. Now, I have been wondering about the question of the
role of the Italian Communist Party (PCI) in the 1970s. I was thinking thatInterview with Franco Berardi (Bifo) 1499780230_221192_14_inte.pdf 10/3/08 11:37 AM Page 149