GM:Do you think that his meeting with Negri might have prevented that
from happening?Bifo:Certainly, certainly! That is, the relationship between Negri and
Guattari is the encounter of two old militants who had seen so much,
and who at that moment, that is, in the 1980s, were living through a
moment of defeat, of difficulty, but as ‘real men’. And there one finds
a ‘macho’ element ...GM:In Negri, certainly, but in Guattari, I had never felt that.Bifo:It assumes another form: see, perhaps if Guattari had not met
Negri, he would have been able to take stock of his aging, he would
have faced his feminine side and his depression. But instead, this
encounter became for him an element that reinforced his will toward
maintaining an historical presence. It is the Promethean, heroic
element that is very strong in workerist thinking. Because we have to
admit it, it’s a ‘true men’ mode of thinking. I think that all this
became, I would not say a kind of impoverishment, but definitely there
was something missing. Guattari, among other things, entered into a
phase of personal depression, of a very profound personal crisis.GM:But he was taking medicine, right? He wanted to feel better, that is, he
did not want to come to terms from the analytical perspective, you see, not to
go into analysis, so he was taking medication to feel happier.Bifo:And he did well to take medication, but perhaps beyond that, I
think he should have also considered that perhaps...GM:That there are reasons to feel depressed ...Bifo:Yes, and on this, one would need to undertake a long discussion,
to consider relations with women, with men, and basically politics as
an essentialy masculine enterprise, beyond words, beyond intellectual
discoveries that perhaps remain purely intellectual. But I don’t mean
that Guattari was macho, because in fact, it’s not true. But in the polit-
ical and also the philosophical dimension of the last part of his life,
there was the prevalence of the sense of historical presence, of histor-
ical duty, of the dialectic, which made it impossible for him to grasp
the cognitive element that is present within depression. Depression
teaches you something, and you shouldn’t forget what you’ve learnedInterview with Franco Berardi (Bifo) 1599780230_221192_14_inte.pdf 10/3/08 11:37 AM Page 159