Scorsese, who loved it, and there was talk of
him exec-producing it, but the director had his
hands full withThe Irishman. Koskoff, though,
was able to tap up many crew members who
work with Scorsese to joinJoker, so that Phillips
and Phoenix, she says, could “have that quiet
space to work and be shielded from the craziness
of the filmmaking day.”
For the past decade or so, Phoenix has
worked exclusively with directors who allow him
to work instinctively. “You don’t hire Joaquin
Phoenix and say, ‘Okay, stand on that line and
say it just like this,’” says Phillips. “You show him
the set, then you stand in the corner and see
where he goes. It’s thrilling.” And after 15-hour
days on set, the work continued. “We went
home,” says Phoenix, “and would text each other
for hours and then finally go, ‘We gotta just talk,’
and we’d call each other and talk for two hours
about the day, and the scenes coming up. We were
just immersed in it. It’s the best way to work.”
Phillips is just as enthusiastic. “This was an
experience I’ve never had. He questions things,
breaks it apart, we put it back together. And we
have to get up in four hours.” Did Phoenix just
want to be clear about what they were doing? On
the contrary, says Phillips. “There’s never gonna
be clarity with Joaquin. He doesn’t want clarity;
he wants it more jumbled than it is.”
After an hour of talking to us, Phoenix tells
Empirethat he wants to say one more thing about
acting. What he’s really looking for, he says, is
“humiliation”. That’s what he wants to feel.
“There is a bravery that comes with exposing
yourself in that way,” says Phillips, musing on
this. “I think one of the great skills of being
a director is making an actor feel comfortable
enough to be vulnerable and fuck up. Brave is a
cliché, and a big term, but Joaquin is the bravest.”
LAYING OPPOSITE
JOAQUIN Phoenix in
a supporting role is Robert
De Niro, as talk-show host
Murray Franklin. It could
only have been De Niro.
For one, Phillips needed
someone at least as good to go up against
Phoenix, and the two of them both revere
De Niro above all others. Also, though,
The King Of Comedy’s Rupert Pupkin
is a spiritual ancestor to Murray Franklin.
“Bob really loved the script,” says Phillips.
“I met with him and said, ‘I’d be lying to you
if I said we weren’t influenced by a lot of your
movies.’ I talked with him aboutTaxi Driver,
and aboutThe King Of Comedy, which is one of
my favourite movies of all time.” While Murray
Franklin is not Rupert Pupkin, the inspiration
is there, says Phillips, who told De Niro he
thought it “would be really fun and fucked up”
for fans if he was the talk-show host, as Jerry
Lewis’ character was in Scorsese’s film.
Phoenix loved working with him. “It’s the
details, these little gestures you may not even ❯