the mystery of who we are together. Because having a room be safe enough that we could
hold our anonymity together in a very personal way was beautiful. In Corrymeela there’s this
understanding that the quality of what happens in the room is entirely down to the courage
that people have brought. And sure, maybe the group leader has done a nice thing or two.
Fantastic, congratulations. But that’s only ever a bit of salt on the ingredients. And it’s the
participants who are the ingredients. You always need to have that point of view of respect
and gratitude and interest. ’Cause that protects from pride. It also means that when there is
profound resistance in a room and a room just erupts into chaos—as that sometimes does
happen, and people just express their reluctance to take part, to do anything new—knowing
that you’re only one of the ingredients in the room helps you realise, “Actually, it’s not my
fault.” Either if it goes brilliantly or terribly [laughs]. Well it doesn’t have to be. Sometimes it
can be your fault if it goes terribly, you know, if you’re a dickhead. So.Yeah! I love that. Their understanding
in Chinese tradition is that when you’ve
performed you’ve become possessed by a
daemon. And the act of clapping is an exorcism
for that. It is a taking off of the robe you’ve had.
So when I’m performing poetry or anything,
if there’s a clap for me, I have learnt there can
be this false humility. Whereas what I loved
in reading about that from the Chinese culture is to go, “Thank you.” And thank you, A, for
the recognition if you’ve done something well, and thank you, B, for your helping me to step
down now. I’m taking the energy, the noise that you’re making and I’m using that to ground
me rather than to make me surf something.Down in Queenscliff. And one
of the things that’s helped me
enormously with having more
of an audience is thinking
that anytime I meet someone,
I’m meeting a potential friend.
If I have the time—and
usually you can make the
time—to go, “And tell me about
you.” Because people are so
interesting. And somebody has given you the dignity and the respect of coming along to
something you’re doing to engage, to agree, to disagree, to think, to listen, to take part in
some kind of group empathetic experience of art. When I go along to something, a piece
of art, music, poetry, I am trusting with great love the person up the front. And I really
like it if I have the opportunity to talk to them where they say, “And why did you come?”
It’s not saying, “Tell me why you think I’m brilliant.” It’s saying, “Tell me about your life
that we’re gathered around this same thing together.”So one of the things I’m trying to explore in the next book of
poetry, which is called, There Is No Such Thing As The Past.And it’s mostly finished. One of the things I’m exploring is the question of the past and the
way that we tell the past. As Irish people for instance, we can tell the past of Ireland in a way[Laughs]. I’ve found some conversations with you about that
really helpful. That to actually be in front of a large group of
people there’s a sense in which you need to expand yourself
to be able to reach people. But also not to stay larger than
life and not to be in a puffed-up state. But to stay grounded
and return to yourself. I loved what you told me how in China
that the act of clapping was to dispel the daemons...I remember Ursula Le Guin writes about a particular character who’s in a
very grandiose role. And she says that he kept every compliment, every
acknowledgement people ever made of him and wrapped them in his cloak.
And held onto them so that he grew into this kind of huge persona. But it
was just full of a wrong-footed power that was really damaging. And there
is this hilarious David Budbill poem where he writes, “I want to be famous
so I can be humble about being famous.” That’s one of the things I’ve just
delighted about in knowing you. Becoming well-known hasn’t changed you
a bit. I feel like you’re the same person I met all those years ago.I’d like to talk a bit more about your poetry actually,
what you’re working on at the moment perhaps.Ah!
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PÁDRAIG Ó TUAMA
DUMBO FEATHER