41we bothering with these guys, who are infi dels
anyway?” For jihadists, to die while fi ghting for
their own army is martyrdom. That is the differ-
ence. As long as you’re dying in accordance with
the view you subscribe to, you’re a martyr in the
eyes of your group.Harris So you wouldn’t distinguish between jihadists
and other Islamists as to degree of religious convic-
tion— for instance, their level of certainty about the
existence of paradise or the reality of martyrdom?
The difference is purely a matter of methodology?
Nawaz Yes. Some jihadists are not “pious” in the sense
of having fi rm religious convictions. They simply
prefer the vio lence, the direct action, so they’re at-
tracted to those groups. Yet some Islamists are in-
credibly pious and sincerely believe in the holiness
of their po liti cal cause. So piety or the lack of it, and
religious sincerity or the lack of it, fl uctuates be-
tween, within, and among groups.
Harris This is all fascinating— and, again, extremely
useful to spell out. But we should clarify another
point here, because the line between piety and its
lack may not be detectable in the way many of our
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