I don’t think Howard Zinn, say, whines too much and turns
people off, but there are probably other people who do. To the
extent that that’s true, it’s a problem they should overcome.
Take the example of the media group in Brazil we discussed
earlier, which presented television skits that turned people off
because they were boring and full of jargon. This group went back
to the people and let them produce the stuff themselves, simply
providing technical assistance. That second set of programs wasn’t
boring and didn’t turn people off.
That’s exactly the correct approach. People who write about the
responsibility of intellectuals should assume that responsibility and
go out and work with people, provide them whatever help you can,
learn from them.
You’ve observed grassroots movements in places like India, Brazil
and Argentina. Can we learn anything from them?
Those are very vibrant, dynamic societies, with huge problems
and lots going on. But I think they’re also trapped by delusions like,
We’ve got this terrible foreign debt. We’ve got to minimize the
state. They’ve got to understand that they don’t have any debt—just
as we have to understand that corporations are illegitimate private
tyrannies.
You’ve got to free yourself intellectually, and you can’t do it
alone—you liberate yourself through participation with others, just
as you learn things in science by interacting with others. Popular
organizations and umbrella groups help create a basis for this.
Is that enough to bring about serious changes? It’s hard to say.
We have all sorts of advantages that they don’t have—like enormous
wealth, for instance. We also have a unique advantage—there’s no
superpower standing over us. We are the superpower. That makes
a huge difference.
But when you come back from the Third World to the West—the
US in particular—you’re struck by the narrowing of thought and
understanding, the limited nature of legitimate discussion, the
separation of people from each other. It’s startling how stultifying it
feels, since our opportunities are so vastly greater here.
Do you have any ideas on how we can move from preaching to the