turn it into another. What I’m trying to say is
that, as we are evolving, as the species evolves,
we try to make use of all media. So if I were a
poet when Gutenberg invented his press, I would
say, ‘‘let me recite this, and you write it down,
and we’ll get it printed. And we’ll see what this
becomes,’’ because you don’t want to ignore the
possibilities.
And if I understand you correctly, what you
see remaining is that human quality that you said
is essential for vital art to continue.
Well, people have made changes. You take a
poem like theIliadwhich was composed over
some 400 years by a variety of people. We give
Homer credit because Homer started it, and I’m
sure Homer is delighted to take credit for it. But
it kept evolving, because it was a poem being
recited. And just a mere translation, just coming
from Greek into anything else, just coming from
Athens into Sparta would change it as much as
coming from New York into Atlanta. So that
what you have is something that, in fact, is alive.
And it is alive because it has met the test of
people.
It’s curious, isn’t it, that something like the
Aeneidor theOdyssey, maybe even something
likeDon Quixote, meets the definition of what
we now call ‘‘folk art,’’ in the very real sense. And
yet, ‘‘folk art’’ is not considered serious. Folk art is
not important; it’s not high art. What do you think
happened in the course of our, as a people, listen-
ing to poetry, participating in poetry, that changed
somebody’s mind, anyway, about what was serious
and what was not?
The rise of the merchant class. I really do.
They did a lot for art. I don’t take that away,
because they were essentially an unlettered
group, and what they did was to go out and
purchase it, and at some points they were pur-
chasing that which they understood. And as we
got into ‘‘keeping up with the Joneses,’’ it would
almost be: ‘‘Well,mypoet read thispoemlast
night’’; ‘‘Well,mypoet read thispoem!’’ Neither
one of them gave a damn.... But what we got
into was more and more exotic, and the poets
began, of course, to read for each other: ‘‘Any-
body can do whatyoudid. Let me show you
whatI’vedone.’’
We were talking aboutV.And I have noth-
ing againstVand that kind of exotic novel, that
most people won’t read. They won’t have the
patience or, really, the interest in wading
through it. But you take something that almost
every kid on Earth reads, science fiction, which is
not considered literature. If we charted science
fiction on theNew York Timesbest-seller list,
I’m sure they would have the first nine without
looking beck. Or your mysteries. Which is some-
how, again, not considered literature. So then,
we also got the rise of the merchants who made
money off the poets who were making money off
of the merchants. So you got into this publisher
class, right? Again, I’m kind of simplifying it.
But, then, the publishers were saying, ‘‘okay,
then, now we shall determine what is real art.’’
And of course that would be determined by how
difficult it is to meet the test of people. Because,
therefore, they would have to buy the book.
You’re forced to.
And of course there’s a marvelous story by
an Ohio writer, Charles Chesnutt, whom you
probably know, ‘‘Baxter’s Procrustus.’’ And, of
course, Baxter bought this book and raved and
raved and raved about it, and finally one day the
guy opened it, and of course there was nothing
inside. And I think to some degree, publishers
have played that game historically. And I think
to some degree, it is being played now. The pub-
lishers, of course, having kept up with the tech-
nology, are now playing the game on even a
cheaper level, because what they’re saying is
not that we’re bringing you something uniquely
different that you cannot understand, but that
we’re bringing you crap, and what we’re going to
do is make use of the electronic media to make
you want it.
I looked at Sy Hirsch sitting on theToday
show the other morning. He’s got a piece in the
Atlanticon Kissinger. Now that happens to have
some worth. I don’t want you to think that I
don’t think Sy Hirsch has any worth. lt’s just
that he had to go to the electronic media to sell
the competition, really. We can keep saying, tele-
vision doesn’t have to be in competition, but
television isin competition with books. And
what you’re saying is, ‘‘we’re conceding that
you have my audience, and now can I have a
piece of it back?’’ And I just find it fascinating.
We sell crap all day long, though. Sy Hirsch
would be one of the better examples.
Whom do you read now, who is obviously not
crap? Whom do you really like?
I happen to like my fellow Ohio authors. I’m
particularly fond of Toni Morrison, of course,
because Toni continues to confound people by
continuing to strike a different pose every time.Winter