The Washington Post - USA (2022-03-27)

B4 EZ BD K THE WASHINGTON POST.SUNDAY, MARCH 27 , 2022

NATO would stop sending weapons across your bor-

der into Ukraine?

A. I really hope that these terrible things won’t hap-

pen. But, given that he is determined and sees the

invasion in Ukraine [as a failure], he is able to press

the button and to create another front. This is why

we have been talking to our American and British

allies, asking to get antimissile systems like the Pa-

triot and Sky Sabre [the British air defense system].

We have placed these types of defensive weapons in

key areas in Poland.

Q. What shape can you imagine a Ukrainian-Rus-

sian peace deal taking?

A. There are many options on the table, but this is

Ukraine’s sole prerogative. President Zelensky said

that he understands that he cannot enter the NATO

alliance now. He wants, however, to be part of the

European Union. Poland strongly supports this. We

are advocating for the E.U. to grant Ukraine candi-

date status as quickly as possible.

Q. How long would that take?

A. I hope that this terrible war has created new con-

ditions in the hearts and minds of many European

leaders, and they will not think about accession of

countries like Ukraine as a long process. Most of the

countries of the E.U. understand that this is needed.

Only a few countries do not want to make this proc-

ess quick for Ukraine.

Q. France?

A. France, probably Germany and the Netherlands

are the three which are known as not being so en-

thusiastic. However, even these countries under-

stand that we are now living in a completely differ-

ent world, so we have to take brave decisions.

Q. How did your train trip to Kyiv last week come

about?

A. We [including Czech Prime Minister Petr Fiala

and Slovenian Prime Minister Janez Jansa] went to-

gether to Kyiv to help them keep up their morale

of the population is under such pressure from the

Kremlin propaganda that they are to some extent

hostage to this propaganda.

Q. If Russia does win, do you think Putin will attack

the Baltic states and, possibly, Poland and Moldova?

A. Yes, I think that if they are not stopped in

Ukraine, they will concentrate on other states to re-

establish the Russian empire: the Baltic states, Fin-

land, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary — we all

can be the next object of attack.

Q. Do you want permanent U.S. troops stationed in

Poland?

A. Very much so. We appreciate the recent increase

of American troops. We have 10,000 American

troops here, but we should be able to have a perma-

nent base in Poland with 30 to 40,000 U.S. troops.

Q. Do you take Putin’s references to using nuclear

weapons seriously?

A. Yes, we take all of his threats seriously, because

we believe that he and the Kremlin are, unfortu-

nately, able to do all sorts of bad things. But I don’t

think that weakness is the response to such a threat.

We have to be as strong as possible to give Putin a

sign that we are not weak — that we are going to re-

spond very strongly to all his attempts to destabilize

the West.

Q. If Putin sees himself in trouble, do you think he

might test the West by attacking Poland?

A. I think the likelihood of this is small. The appro-

priate reply to all of his threats is to show him that

we are not afraid. The minute he sees that we are

afraid, he will move ahead to try to reestablish the

Russian empire.

Q. Analysts in the United States talk about the con-

cept of “escalating to de-escalate.” Do you believe

that Putin would fire a tactical short-range missile

into Poland or Ukraine, and then hope the world

would de-escalate and that the United States and

Q. France and Germany are not doing enough?
A. Definitely so. This is what President Zelensky is
loudly indicating.

Q. The United States thinks they’re doing a lot.
A. They could be doing better.

Q. President Zelensky is frustrated?
A. I would say so. He is crying to get this support.
He told me, “If you don’t want to help me with your
armies, help me with your defensive weapons. Help
me to defend my citizens’ homes, the lives of my
women and children.”

Q. The Russian invasion doesn’t seem to stop.
A. The invasion doesn’t stop. Mariupol before the
war had almost half a million inhabitants, and [Rus-
sian President Vladimir] Putin’s now destroying
building after building. There is a huge humanitari-
an crisis. Putin is not letting innocent people, wom-
en and children out of these places. It’s a very brutal
war.

Q. What’s going to happen?
A. I hope that, with growing pressure from the West
and the strong morale of the Ukrainian soldiers, Pu-
tin and his people will be ready to start real negotia-
tions to stop the war [and have] a cease-fire and
withdraw Russian troops. This should be a precon-
dition for further negotiations. The sanctions which
we have adopted are the strongest ever, but, having
said that, we have to prepare for even heavier sanc-
tions. We have to cut off buying Russian gas and oil,
because these are the main sources of hard currency
for Putin, which he then turns into a war machine.

Q. The current sanctions don’t totally cut off gas
and oil?
A. Yes. The sanctions have to really be crushing.
What is so important is freezing and confiscating as-
sets of the Russian oligarchs and Putin himself. The
freezing as such is not good enough, because frozen
assets can grow in value. The money of the Russian
sovereign wealth fund and the Russian bonds
lodged in central banks of Western countries should
be confiscated and put into a fund to reconstruct
Ukraine after the war. Putin has to understand that
he is already losing hundreds of billions of dollars —
and if he does not stop, he will lose even more.

Q. You said recently that Poland would ask NATO to
create a peacekeeping force. Can you elaborate? Do
you want this peacekeeping force to fly over a hu-
manitarian zone in western Ukraine?
A. Many Ukrainian towns and cities are surround-
ed, and completely innocent people are being killed.
The proposal I made in Kyiv was to organize a
peacekeeping mission led by NATO and potentially
other international organizations completely fo-
cused on defending innocent people.

Q. Would it be an air force or a ground force?
A. It could be both. A humanitarian peacekeeping
mission has to be able to defend innocent people
and not be attacked by Russian troops.

Q. Currently, there are 7 million displaced Ukraini-
an people.
A. There are 8 or 9 million displaced people and 5 or
6 million refugees in the western part of Ukraine.

Q. So you could set up a humanitarian zone in the
western part of Ukraine?
A. This was our proposal in Kyiv, to have this hu-
manitarian zone, because there are more and more
innocent people there who have just fled the war.

Q. Of course, you have to have ground cover and air
cover to create a humanitarian zone in western
Ukraine.
A. This would have to be a full mandate of NATO
and potentially other international organizations.

Q. Were you surprised by how poorly the Russians
are doing on the battlefield?
A. That’s correct. But let’s not fool ourselves. [Putin]
still has vast resources behind him to destroy this
brave nation. ... We discussed this very point at
length with President Zelensky, and he and his min-
isters showed us in detail the situation on different
fronts, and they told us what they need — weapons
mostly — and what they want to achieve over the
next couple of days and weeks. The very fact that we
can talk about the next weeks and even months is
astonishing. Nobody would have expected this sev-
eral weeks ago. Poland is active in providing hu-
manitarian help but also in orchestrating other
types of support for Ukraine. We discussed this at
length with President Zelensky.

Q. And he said?
A. He needs all sorts of humanitarian support.
Ukraine has the biggest refugee crisis since the end
of the Second World War. Poland is at the forefront
of this crisis: Around 2.5 million refugees have come
to Poland over the past two to three weeks. Poles
and the Polish government opened our hearts and
our doors to the Ukrainian people. We were able to
help millions of women with children, to accommo-
date them in Poland.

Q. Do you think there is a possibility that the Ukrai-
nians could win the war?
A. Absolutely so. They are fighting with lion hearts.
The Ukrainian soldiers are defending their land
bravely and creating such difficulty for the Russian
army that it will be difficult for the Russians to occu-
py the entire territory. Not only do I believe that
they are able to win this war, but at the end of the
day, this war can be a critical moment in creating
new and better security conditions. There are good
guys and bad guys around us. And Putin is one of
the worst, a war criminal. We are documenting the
war crimes which he and his Russian soldiers are
committing. I hope there will be justice at the end of
this war.

Q. What do you think is going on inside Russia? We
saw the broadcaster Marina Ovsyannikova of Rus-
sian state TV protest the war and be hauled away by
the state police. Do you think the frustration with
Putin and the war is just a few elite Russians, or do
you think it runs deeper?
A. Unfortunately, I’m pessimistic. I think there are
only a few people brave enough to stand in front of
brutal power, the secret security and the Russian
police, and protest against this policy. The majority

MORAWIECKI FROM B1

‘We have to be as

strong as possible’

against Putin

PAUL KARASIK FOR THE WASHINGTON POST

and their fighting spirit, because they are fighting

heroically for their freedom and for European val-

ues. And also we went to have a long discussion

about what President Zelensky needs in terms of

weapons and humanitarian aid and how the West-

ern world and NATO can help his government. Pres-

ident Zelensky told me that they don’t need sympa-

thy, they need concrete support — in particular, they

need defensive weapons to defend against tanks,

aircrafts, jet fighters, missiles and bombs which are

falling on the houses and cities of the Ukrainian

people. We are doing everything possible on our end

to support them in their heroic fight for freedom.

Q. Why did you embark on this trip?

A. We did it to help them maintain their fighting

spirit and their morale. Also to give them hope be-

cause they want to be part of the European Union.

For this visit, we didn’t need any authorization, but

we did make contacts previously with key players in

the European Union — with the president of the Eu-

ropean Commission and with the president of the

European Council. We felt we were their intermedi-

aries to Ukraine. We are in regular daily contact

with presidents and prime ministers of the Euro-

pean Union.

Q. How is President Zelensky doing?

A. He is an incredible leader. He believes he is not

only fighting for the freedom of his own nation but

also that he is defending Western values. Western

values are based on differentiating between good

and evil ... While he is fighting for his own sover-

eignty, I believe that at the same time he is fighting

for our Western values. This is why we, the West,

should help him in his heroic defense against this

barbaric and brutal Russian invasion.

Twitter: @LallyWeymouth

Lally Graham Weymouth is a senior associate editor at

The Washington Post. She has been conducting interviews

with world leaders for many years for The Post and, before

that, for Newsweek.