TIME October 9, 2017‘When you have
somebody in
your organization
who believes
that women are
biologically inferior
engineers, I don’t
know how you build
an inclusive culture.’9 Questions
Ellen Pao The former Reddit CEO may have lost her 2015
discrimination suit against venture-capital firm Kleiner
Perkins, but she’s moving ahead with her mission
the ladder in spite of it?There are
times when your best bet is to stay, even
if there are problems. Racism and sexism
are systemic issues in tech, so there aren’t
many places you can go where you’re not
going to encounter some form of them.What tech companies are succeeding
at inclusion?There are no companies
that you can call successful—where 50%
of the executives are female, where racial
diversity reflects the population.What was your reaction to the Google
engineer’s memo earlier this year?
I was relieved to see the CEO fire him,
because when you have somebody in your
organization who believes that women
are biologically inferior engineers, I don’t
know how you build an inclusive culture
around that. That there are people who
continue to believe that women lower
the bar is incredibly disappointing but
unfortunately not a surprise.How has society’s perception of sex-
ism in tech changed since your case?
When I litigated, people didn’t believe
me. And if you look at the reception of
Susan Fowler’s blog [on sexism at Uber],
there was a belief that this had hap-
pened. I think it’s because there have
been many women and men who have
shared their own experiences. Calling
out these problems over the past five
years has made a difference.As CEO of Reddit, you shut
down some abusive sub-
reddits. Where should social-
media sites draw the line
between free speech and
abuse?The line is clear: when
there’s behavior that is in-
tended to cause people to
be pushed off a platform,
your platform is no longer
encouraging free speech.
The whole concept of free
speech is oriented around
different voices being able
to share and discuss ideas.
—ELIANA DOCKTERMANYou write in your new book,Reset,
about how Kleiner Perkins tried to
get you into arbitration, which would
have kept your case private. Why
did you say no?Arbitration is generally
part of most employee contracts at large
companies in most industries. I think it
hinders the free flow of information. It’s
supposed to be designed to allow for faster,
cheaper resolution. But it often ends up
covering bad behavior. I think we’ve seen
with the revelations at Fox News that
persistent harassment was hidden.
Do you worry that encouraging
women or minorities to speak up
discourages companies from hiring
them?That’s just a terrible way to run
your company. Almost nobody litigates.
It’s draining financially, psychologically,
emotionally and professionally. Betting
your company on that 0.01% risk that
someone will sue makes no sense.
What would you advise women who
experience sexism or harassment in
the workplace to do?Get out. These are
people who are just not going to accept
you. You’re not going to get promoted.
You don’t have to prove yourself because
there’s no way to do that. If you don’t have
other opportunities, try to find someone
else to work with within the company.
Some people argue that the reason
few women make it to the executive
level is that they opt out to have kids.
Do you think that’s true?That has not
been my experience. The Kapor Center
recently conducted a national study
looking at why people leave their tech jobs.
The biggest reason was workplace culture.
When people hear sexist comments,
when they feel they are unfairly critiqued,
when they see people being promoted
for opportunities they should have been
promoted for, they leave. It’s not that they
suddenly want to be stay-at-home moms.
They’re just tired of the sexism.
What do you make of a situation like
that of Megyn Kelly, where someone
endures harassment but moves up
BRIAN FLAHERTY—THE NEW YORK TIMES/REDUX