T
o take Pipsnacks to the next level, the Martin siblings have
decided to shake things up. So, in recent months, they’ve intro-
duced a new product—their first since launching—and are roll-
ing it out gradually in a series of tests. It’s called Bigs & Littles.
“We’re super psyched about it,” Jen says, beaming. “It’s mini
popcorn and big popcorn in the same bag.”
Jeff pulls out three bags of the new snack and spreads them across
the table. There’s The Big Cheese, Cinnablast, and the surprisingly
tasty Berry Chill. The bag of Cinnablast is passed around, and every-
one grabs a handful.
We’re still chewing when Corcoran homes in on the core issue:
How to market the new stuff without cannibalizing Pipcorn sales?
Bigs & Littles is aimed at a different market, the Martins explain:
children and families. “Maybe the parents will pick up a truffle, and
then maybe they’ll pick up a Berry Chill or a Cinnablast for the kids,”
Jeff says. Corcoran looks at the bag and squinches up her face. While
the design is a notch more upbeat than the clean, artisanal Pipcorn
branding, it’s pretty austere compared with a box of Cap’n Crunch.
“Why not put a kid’s face on there?” she asks. “I think that would
clearly say ‘Bam! It’s for kids!’ If you had a kid laughing his ass off on
there, I would see this right away as a differentiator between the two
brands.” She pauses, then adds, “I mean, if you really believe it’s for
kids. Have you proven that?”
So far, Jeff assures her, sales of Pipcorn remain strong in the
Whole Foods stores that also carry Bigs & Littles. Jen notes that
the third-party “demo teams”—merchandising companies hired
to do in-store sampling—have unanimously reported a rhapsodic
response from children.
Corcoran isn’t convinced. “I’m just going to say it: I suspect there’s
no difference in the customer,” she tells them. “Your theory’s nice, but
you need to test it.” Outside marketing companies don’t always pro-
vide the most reliable feedback, she says. “There’s no replacement for
your own eyes and ears. This is the birth of your product. It’s scary to
trust anybody except the mother.” Her suggestion? Cut out the mid-
dleman and spend a day personally handing out samples of both lines
in a local store, interfacing directly with customers.
Of course, Corcoran already knows what they’ll learn: that brighter,
more eye-catching colors and cute characters will be key to ensuring
that Bigs & Littles finds its target market. Their new popcorn needs
to pop. Jen suggests creating a pair of popcorn-shaped characters, one
big, one little, bouncing on a trampoline. Corcoran wants her to take it
a step further. “It has to be you two,” she says. “He can be the big guy,
and you’re the little guy flipping in the air. But he’s got to have those
glasses, and you’ve got to have the wacky hair.”
Jeff ’s horn-rims, Jen’s frizzy mane—that’s the brand. The Martins
wince a bit.
Then there’s the copy. “This doesn’t have the word kidson it
anywhere,” Corcoran points out. “I would say, ‘Kids love it!’ I know
that’s hokey and not your style, cause you’re more sophisticated
than that. But I think you have to hit them over the head.” And it
should say “healthy,” she adds. “I’m one of those moms that give their
kids all kinds of shit, so I don’t care about that.” (Corcoran has a
23-year-old son and a 12-year-old daughter.) “But most moms are
really responsible.”
Although their products are made with olive oil, non-GMO corn,
and organic flavors, Jeff worries that calling them healthy might
draw a rebuke from the FDA, which is currently updating its guide-
lines for use of the term. “Why don’t you put it out there for your
launch and see what happens?” Corcoran suggests. “You might not
want to take that risk, but I’d take it for sure. And I’d even put a
money wager that you’ll have it out there for five years before any-
body says anything.”
For all her audacity, Corcoran’s personal touch is very much in evi-
dence during the meeting. “How are you doing with relaxing?” she
wants to know. “How many hours are you working?”
“A lot!” Jen says. “I mean, we just work all the time.”
“Are you having any fun?” Corcoran asks, concerned. “Because it
affects your business.”
“I’m going to Minneapolis for a Target meeting on Monday,” Jeff
says cheerily.
They laugh, but Corcoran is serious, noting that she’ll be bringing
her own small office staff on an extravagant jaunt to the Yucatan in
a little more than a month. “We’re going to piss away a lot of money,”
she says, vowing to spend every penny of an upcoming speaking fee.
(She typically bills $70,000 per appearance.) “We’re not taking any-
thing home. And I know this team is going to work harder because
I’m taking them on a boondoggle. It’s a natural response. It makes
the work from now to that point more joyful. And if you’re more joy-
ful, the customer feels that. You make more sales. Everything else
happens.” She addresses the Martins directly. “I can’t tell you what
to do,” she says, “but I would like to encourage you before the week is
out to put a real vacation in your book, so you can plan against it.” Oh,
totally, the Martins say. They’re absolutely going to think about that.
T
he hard truth is, creating a business doesn’t leave a lot of time
for sipping daiquiris on a beach somewhere, and predict-
ably, when I call to check in a week after the meeting, Jeff
and Jen Martin’s calendars are still conspicuously lacking in
vacation plans. They also sound a little iffy on some of their
lead investor’s other advice. They might add some verbiage
to the Bigs & Littles bags, for instance, but they’re not quite ready
to embrace a wholesale redesign (much less put their faces on the
bags), as Corcoran advocated. And they definitely aren’t going to risk
calling the product healthy. “If the FDA gets a complaint, they have to
respond,” Jeff explains, “and it’s kind of a big deal.”
Corcoran had given them some good notes on their website,
though, which they fully intended to implement.
As for the kooky bag-hats? Yeah, maybe not.
Still, they both insisted, the meeting had been helpful. It wasn’t
the specific bits of advice they prized but the strategic vision behind
Corcoran’s ideas, the enthusiasm she brings to the process and the
way she makes them examine their assumptions and think things
through. “Sometimes with her ideas, we just kind of take the mood or
the spirit behind it and work with that,” Jen says.
In the end, that’s what Corcoran is hoping for. She has often said
that while she loves offering advice, the entrepreneurs who largely
ignore her suggestions and trust their own instincts tend to be the
ones who succeed in the end.
But there is one piece of advice on which Corcoran is utterly reso-
lute. No product Pipsnacks will ever produce will be as important to
its long-term success as the legend of its founding and the personal-
ity of its founders; those two things are invaluable, and they must be
hammered home at every opportunity.
“For you to give up that story ever, you’re out of your mind,”
Corcoran told them. “It’s a little fairy tale. This is what I bought into.”
And why not? After all, Barbara Corcoran had a fairy tale of her
own—and she told it again and again. “I often actually think to myself,
What if I didn’t have my story?” she says, taking a last sip from her cup
of now-cold coffee. “I didn’t want to be seen as a waitress! I wanted a
high-end company. But you know what I learned? People like to see
someone get ahead.That’sthe story.”
Aaron Gell is a freelance writer in New York and the features editor
of Task & Purpose.
40 / ENTREPRENEUR.COM / January-February 2018