The New York Times - USA (2020-11-09)

P4 N THE NEW YORK TIMES, MONDAY, NOVEMBER 9, 2020

Election

For months, Representative
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has
been a good soldier for the Dem-
ocratic Party and Joseph R.
Biden Jr. as he sought to defeat
President Trump.
But on Saturday, in a nearly
hourlong interview shortly after
President-elect Biden was de-
clared the winner, Ms. Ocasio-
Cortez made clear the divisions
within the party that animated
the primary still exist. And she
dismissed recent criticisms from
some Democratic House mem-
bers who have blamed the par-
ty’s left for costing them impor-
tant seats. Some of the members
who lost, she said, had made
themselves “sitting ducks.”
These are edited excerpts from
the conversation.

We finally have a fuller
understanding of the results.
What’s your macro takeaway?

Well, I think the central one is
that we aren’t in a free fall to hell
anymore. But whether we’re
going to pick ourselves up or not
is the lingering question. We
paused this precipitous descent.
And the question is if and how
we will build ourselves back up.
We know that race is a prob-
lem, and avoiding it is not going
to solve any electoral issues. We
have to actively disarm the po-
tent influence of racism at the
polls.
But we also learned that pro-
gressive policies do not hurt
candidates. Every single candi-
date that co-sponsored Medicare
for All in a swing district kept
their seat. We also know that
co-sponsoring the Green New
Deal was not a sinker. Mike
Levin was an original co-sponsor
of the legislation, and he kept his
seat.

Democrats lost seats in an
election where they were expected
to gain them. Is that what you are
ascribing to racism and white
supremacy at the polls?

I think it’s going to be really
important how the party deals
with this internally, and whether
the party is going to be honest
about doing a real post-mortem
and actually digging into why
they lost. Because before we
even had any data yet in a lot of
these races, there was already
finger-pointing that this was
progressives’ fault and that this
was the fault of the Movement
for Black Lives.
I’ve already started looking
into the actual functioning of
these campaigns. And the thing
is, I’ve been unseating Demo-
crats for two years. I have been

defeating Democratic Congres-

sional Campaign Committee-run

campaigns for two years. That’s

how I got to Congress. That’s

how we elected Ayanna Pressley.

That’s how Jamaal Bowman won.

That’s how Cori Bush won. And

so we know about extreme vul-

nerabilities in how Democrats

run campaigns.

Some of this is criminal. It’s

malpractice. Conor Lamb spent

$2,000 on Facebook the week

before the election. I don’t think

anybody who is not on the inter-

net in a real way in the Year of

our Lord 2020 and loses an elec-

tion can blame anyone else when

you’re not even really on the

internet.

And I’ve looked through a lot

of these campaigns that lost, and

the fact of the matter is if you’re

not spending $200,000 on Face-

book with fund-raising, persua-

sion, volunteer recruitment,

get-out-the-vote the week before

the election, you are not firing on

all cylinders. And not a single

one of these campaigns were

firing on all cylinders.

Well, Conor Lamb did win. So what

are you saying: Investment in

digital advertising and canvassing

are a greater reason moderate

Democrats lost than any

progressive policy?

These folks are pointing toward

Republican messaging that they

feel killed them, right? But why

were you so vulnerable to that

attack?

Our party isn’t even online, not

in a real way that exhibits com-

petence. And so, yeah, they were

vulnerable to these messages,

because they weren’t even on the

mediums where these messages

were most potent. Sure, you can

point to the message, but they

were also sitting ducks.

There’s a reason Barack

Obama built an entire national

campaign apparatus outside of

the Democratic National Com-

mittee. And there’s a reason that

when he didn’t activate or contin-

ue that, we lost House majorities.

Because the party — in and of

itself — does not have the core

competencies, and no amount of

money is going to fix that.

If I lost my election, and I went

out and I said: “This is moder-

ates’ fault. This is because you

didn’t let us have a floor vote on

Medicare for all.” And they

opened the hood on my cam-

paign, and they found that I only

spent $5,000 on TV ads the week

before the election? They would

laugh. And that’s what they look

like right now trying to blame

the Movement for Black Lives.

Is there anything from Tuesday

that surprised you?

The share of white support for

Trump. I thought the polling was

off, but just seeing it, there was

that feeling of realizing what

work we have to do.

We need to do a lot of anti-

racist, deep canvassing in this

country. Because if we keep

losing white shares and just

allowing Facebook to radicalize

more and more elements of

white voters and the white elec-

torate, there’s no amount of

people of color and young people

that you can turn out to offset

that.

But the problem is that right

now, I think a lot of Dem strategy

is to avoid actually working

through this. Just trying to avoid

poking the bear. That’s their

argument with defunding police,

right? To not agitate racial re-

sentment. I don’t think that is

sustainable.

There’s a lot of magical think-

ing in Washington, that this is

just about special people that

kind of come down from on high.

Year after year, we decline the

idea that they did work and ran

sophisticated operations in favor

of the idea that they are magical,

special people. I need people to

take these goggles off and realize

how we can do things better.

If you are the D.C.C.C., and

you’re hemorrhaging incumbent

candidates to progressive insur-

gents, you would think that you

may want to use some of those

firms. But instead, we banned

them. So the D.C.C.C. banned

every single firm that is the best

in the country at digital organ-

izing.

The leadership and elements

of the party — frankly, people in

some of the most important

decision-making positions in the

party — are becoming so blinded

to this anti-activist sentiment

that they are blinding them-

selves to the very assets that

they offer.

I’ve been begging the party to

let me help them for two years.

That’s also the damn thing of it.

I’ve been trying to help. Before

the election, I offered to help

every single swing district Dem-

ocrat with their operation. And

every single one of them, but

five, refused my help. And all five

of the vulnerable or swing dis-

trict people that I helped secured

victory or are on a path to secure

victory. And every single one

that rejected my help is losing.

And now they’re blaming us for

their loss.

So I need my colleagues to

understand that we are not the

enemy. And that their base is not

the enemy. That the Movement

for Black Lives is not the enemy,

that Medicare for all is not the

enemy. This isn’t even just about

winning an argument. It’s that if

they keep going after the wrong

thing, I mean, they’re just setting

up their own obsolescence.

What is your expectation as to

how open the Biden

administration will be to the left?

And what is the strategy in terms

of moving it?

I don’t know how open they’ll be.

And it’s not a personal thing. It’s

just, the history of the party

tends to be that we get really

excited about the grass roots to

get elected. And then those com-

munities are promptly aban-

doned right after an election.

I think the transition period is

going to indicate whether the

administration is taking a more

open and collaborative approach,

or whether they’re taking a kind

of icing-out approach. Because

Obama’s transition set a trajec-

tory for 2010 and some of our

House losses. It was a lot of

those transition decisions — and

who was put in positions of lead-

ership — that really informed,

unsurprisingly, the strategy of

governance.

What if the administration is

hostile? If they take the John

Kasich view of who Joe Biden

should be? What do you do?

Well, I’d be bummed, because

we’re going to lose. And that’s

just what it is. These transition

appointments, they send a sig-

nal. They tell a story of who the

administration credits with this

victory.

It’s really hard for us to turn

out nonvoters when they feel like

nothing changes for them. When

they feel like people don’t see

them, or even acknowledge their

turnout.

If the party believes after 94

percent of Detroit went to Biden,

after Black organizers just dou-

bled and tripled turnout down in

Georgia, after so many people

organized Philadelphia, the sig-

nal from the Democratic Party is

the John Kasichs won us this

election? I mean, I can’t even

describe how dangerous that is.

You’re maybe the most famous

voice on the left currently. What

can we expect from you?

I don’t know. I think I’ll have

probably more answers as we

get through transition, and to the

next term. How the party re-

sponds will very much inform

my approach and what I think is

going to be necessary.

The last two years have been

pretty hostile. Externally, we’ve

been winning. Externally, there’s

been a ton of support, but inter-

nally, it’s been extremely hostile

to anything that even smells

progressive.

Is the party ready to, like, sit

down and work together and

figure out how we’re going to use

the assets from everyone at the

party? Or are they going to just

kind of double down on this

smothering approach? And that’s

going to inform what I do.

Is there a universe in which they’re

hostile enough that we’re talking

about a Senate run?

I genuinely don’t know. I don’t

even know if I want to be in

politics. You know, for real, in the

first six months of my term, I

didn’t even know if I was going

to run for re-election this year.

Really? Why?

It’s the incoming. It’s the stress.

It’s the violence. It’s the lack of

support from your own party. It’s

your own party thinking you’re

the enemy. When your own col-

leagues talk anonymously in the

press and then turn around and

say you’re bad because you

actually append your name to

your opinion.

I chose to run for re-election

because I felt like I had to prove

that this is real. That this move-

ment was real. That I wasn’t a

fluke. That people really want

guaranteed health care and that

people really want the Democrat-

ic Party to fight for them.

But I’m serious when I tell

people the odds of me running

for higher office and the odds of

me just going off trying to start a

homestead somewhere — they’re

probably the same.

Q. AND A. WITH OCASIO-CORTEZ

Some House Democrats

Were ‘Sitting Ducks’

By ASTEAD W. HERNDON

Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez took aim at some Democrats’ lack of digital strategy.

DESIREE RIOS FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES

The carefully calibrated unity
of the Democratic Party lasted
about six months. After a sum-
mer when moderates and pro-
gressives joined together to elect
Joseph R. Biden Jr. president, his
victory has now given permis-
sion for the party to expend time
and energy on the difficult task
of sorting out its ideological core.
House Democrats, reeling
from unexpected losses in com-
petitive races, wasted no time.
Moderates have blamed progres-
sives for pushing policies such as
“Medicare for all” and defunding
the police, which are unpopular
in swing districts.
But progressives, rallying to
influence Mr. Biden on cabinet
appointments and initial policy,
have pushed back. Representa-
tive Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of
New York has pinned those
House losses on poor digital
campaigning, saying members
made themselves “sitting ducks”
for Republicans.
Conor Lamb, the 36-year-old
Pennsylvania Democrat who
beat back a Republican challenge
in a district that President
Trump won in 2016, is one of
those moderates who believes
the left is costing Democrats in
key areas. In an interview with
The New York Times, Mr. Lamb
said he expected the incoming
administration to govern as it
had campaigned: with progres-
sives at arm’s length.
This interview has been con-
densed and lightly edited for
clarity.

What’s your expectation of Joe
Biden’s Democratic Party? How do
you expect him to fall on the
moderate vs. progressive divisions
we see in the House?

I think that he means what he
says when he says, “I ran a
Democrat, but I’m going to serve
as an American president.” And
what that means, I believe, is
that every single day, and on
every issue, he’s going to be

working to get as many people

around the table and singing

from the same sheet music as

you can. And sometimes that will

be everyone in the Democratic

caucus. Sometimes it will be

some people in the Democratic

caucus and some Republicans. I

think that’s going to change by

the issue, but he’s a person that

really believes our actual job in

Washington, D.C., is to work with

each other, compromise to get

the best deal we can and then get

the thing done. And I believe that

too.

What went wrong for House

Democrats when they were

supposed to pick up seats?

I’m giving you an honest account

of what I’m hearing from my

own constituents, which is that

they are extremely frustrated by

the message of defunding the

police and banning fracking. And

I, as a Democrat, am just as

frustrated. Because those things

aren’t just unpopular, they’re

completely unrealistic, and they

aren’t going to happen. And they

amount to false promises by the

people that call for them.

If someone in your family

makes their living in some way

connected to natural gas,

whether on the pipeline itself, or

you know, even in a restaurant

that serves natural gas workers,

this isn’t something to joke

around about or be casual about

in your language.

That’s what we’re trying to

say: that the rhetoric and the

policies and all that stuff — it has

gone way too far. It needs to be

dialed back. It needs to be rooted

in common sense, in reality, and

yes, politics. Because we need

districts like mine to stay in the

majority and get something done

for the people that we care about

the most.

Let’s take that issue. The

Democratic nominee did not

support defunding the police.

Almost all the members of the

Democratic Congress, even folks

like Senators Bernie Sanders and

Elizabeth Warren, came out

against that issue. What is the

party supposed to do that it

didn’t?

I think we can do it much more

clearly and repetitively and show

it with our actions. We need to

have a unified Democratic mes-

sage about good law enforce-

ment and how to keep people

safe, while addressing the sys-

temic racism that I do believe

exists and the racial inequities

that absolutely do exist. And

when we passed the George

Floyd Justice and Policing Act,

that’s exactly what we did.

But the people that I was on

the phone with, when we were

passing that at the time, were not

the freshmen members who are

criticizing us today. It was Karen

Bass and Cedric Richmond and

Colin Allred — and I was listen-

ing to them. And, you know,

pretty much most of our modern

conservative Democrats all

voted for that bill. We listened,

we compromised and we got

something done. And that’s what

this job is really about.

Is it the view of moderate

Democrats that the progressives

or the so-called Squad has taken

up too much space in the national

conversation?

I wouldn’t put it that way. Be-

cause that really focuses on them

as individuals and their person-

alities. And that is not what we’re

trying to do. We’re trying to have

a discussion about policy, not

personality. And I want to be

really clear on that, because I

respect every one of those mem-

bers and how hard they worked

to get elected and how hard they

have worked to stay elected and

represent their constituencies.

But the fact is that they and

others are advocating policies

that are unworkable and ex-

tremely unpopular.

So I would just say that our

view is more that we want to

have a clearer, sharper, more

unified message on policy itself,

regardless of who gets the credit

or who is in the limelight for that.

In the Democratic primary, even

as progressive candidates lost,

polling showed that their issues

remained popular among

Democrats. Even things like

single-payer health insurance or

things like the Green New Deal.

What’s your response to that?

At the end of the day, it’s individ-

ual candidates that have to win

races, and then work with their

fellow officeholders to pass bills

into law and change people’s

lives. So you can tell me all the

polling you want, but you have to

win elections.

And I’ve now been through

three very difficult elections in a

Republican-leaning district, with

the president personally cam-

paigning against me. And I can

tell you that people are not clam-

oring for the two policies that

you just asked about. So, that’s

just what probably separates a

winner from a loser in a district

like mine.

On Saturday, I interviewed

Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez

and she mentioned you and how

some House moderates ran their

campaigns. I wanted to get a fact

check quickly: Did you all spend

just $2,000 on Facebook the week

before the election?

She doesn’t have any idea how

we ran our campaign, or what we

spent. So yeah, her statement

was wrong. But there’s a deeper

truth there, which is this — that

our districts and our campaigns

are extremely different. You

know, I just leave it at that.

She said the way moderates ran

their campaigns left them as

“sitting ducks.” What was your

reaction?

I was surprised about the whole

interview on the day when Vice

President and now President-

Elect Biden was having the elec-

tion called for him. I just don’t

think it was a day for people to

be sniping at other members,

especially in districts that are so

different from their own.

I respect her and how hard she

works. And what she did in an

extremely low-turnout Demo-

cratic primary. But the fact is

that in general elections in these

districts — particularly in the

ones where President Trump

himself campaigns over and over

and over again, and attacks

members within their own Re-

publican-leaning districts, like

me and Representative Slotkin

and Representative Spanberger

— it’s the message that matters.

It’s not a question of door knock-

ing, or Facebook. It matters what

policies you stand for, and which

ones you don’t. And that is all

that we are trying to say.

The American people just

showed us in massive numbers,

generally, which side of these

issues that they are on. They

sent us a Republican Senate and

a Democratic president; we’re

going have to do things that we

can compromise over.

You mentioned sniping. Are

progressives leading that or are

moderates also doing so? I’m

thinking of all the anonymous

quotes attacking members of the

left, something that she

mentioned.

That’s a hard question to answer,

because I don’t know who the

anonymous people are. But I got

to say, as you’ve talked a lot

about Representative Ocasio-

Cortez, she can put her name

behind stuff and that’s I guess

courageous, but when it’s a dam-

aging idea or bad policy, like her

tweeting out that fracking is bad

in the middle of a presidential

debate when we’re trying to win

western Pennsylvania — that’s

not being a team player. And it’s

honestly giving a false and inef-

fective promise to people that

makes it very difficult to win the

areas where President Trump is

most popular in campaigns.

You and Congresswoman

Ocasio-Cortez are on different

sides of the ideological spectrum,

but the same side of a

generational divide among

Democrats. House party

leadership has said they plan to

run again. Does there need to be

more youth among Democratic

leadership?

The most important thing is that

the leadership we have has to

listen to the younger members

and actually give us some input

and help us get accomplishments

at the policy level. But what

seems to happen sometimes is

when push comes to shove, the

younger members who have

come from these really tough

districts and tough races don’t

always feel that the leadership

takes our input as seriously as

we would like. And I would bet

that Representative Ocasio-

Cortez would feel similarly —

even if it was on different issues.

Q. AND A. WITH LAMB

A Moderate Responds to ‘the Squad’

Representative Conor Lamb of

Pennsylvania, who narrowly

won re-election, says backlash

to progressive policies could

kill his party’s House majority.

ERIN SCHAFF/THE NEW YORK TIMES

By ASTEAD W. HERNDON