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that you don’t get tired in any way of going all through the way it seems to you about
the things we’re asking, what the sharing of children and women will be among our
guardians, and about the rearing of those who are still young that takes place in the time
between birth and education, which seems to be the most troublesome time. So try to
say in what way it needs to happen.”
“It’s not easy to go through, you happy fellow,” I said, “because it has a lot of
doubtful points, even more than the things we went through before. It could even be
doubted that what’s spoken of is possible, and even if it came about as much as it possi-
bly could, there will also be doubts even in that case that this would be the best thing.
That’s why there was a certain reluctance to touch on these things, for fear, dear com-
rade, the argument would seem to be only a prayer.”
“Don’t be reluctant at all,” he said, “since your listeners won’t be unfair or disbe-
lieving or ill-disposed.”
And I said, “Most excellent fellow, I take it you’re saying that to give me
courage?”
“I am,” he said.
“Well you’re doing exactly the opposite,” I said. “If I believed I knew what I was
talking about, your pep talk would have been a beautiful one; to speak when one knows
the truth, among people who are intelligent and friendly, about things that are of greatest
importance and dear to us, is secure and encouraging, but to make one’s arguments at the
same time one is doubtful and searching, which is exactly what I’m doing, is a frighten-
ing and perilous thing. It’s not because I’m liable to be laughed at—that’s childish—
but from fear that I’ll not only tumble away myself from the truth, about things one least
ought to fall down on, but that I’ll also be lying in ruins with the friends I’ve dragged
down with me. So instead I’ll fall on my face in obeisance to Adrasteia, Glaucon, for her
favor for what I’m about to say. I hope it’s a lesser sin to become an unwilling murderer
of someone than a deceiver about what’s beautiful and good and just and lawful. That’s a
risk it’s better to run among enemies rather than friends, so it’s a good thing you gave me
encouragement.”
And Glaucon, with a laugh, said, “Okay, Socrates, if we experience anything
discordant from what you say, we’ll release you like someone purified from being a
murderer and cleared as no deceiver of us. Just speak up boldly.”
“Well, certainly someone who’s released even in that situation is purified,” I said,
“as the law says, so it’s likely that if it’s that way there, it is here too.”
“Speak, then,” he said, “with that assurance.”
“It’s necessary to go back again now,” I said, “and say what probably should
have been said then in the proper place. And maybe this would be the right way, after
the male drama has been completely finished, to finish the female drama in turn,
especially since you’re calling for it this way. To my way of thinking, for human
beings born and educated in the way we went over, there is no other right way for
them to get and treat children and women than to hasten down that road on which we
first started them. We tried, I presume, in the argument, to set the men up like
guardians of a herd.”
“Yes.”
“Then let’s follow that up by giving them the sort of birth and rearing that closely
resemble that, and consider whether it suits us or not.”
“How?” he said.
“This way. Do we imagine that the females among the guard dogs ought to join
in guarding the things the males guard, and hunt with them and do everything else in
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